[DanC]

Originally Posted by jhein

Looks like someone is liquidating at least part of their RA IV GTO collection. I count 11 of them. All look very nice. A couple are numbers matching. [/url]

This is a partial liquidation of his collection.

My friend Bill, is the restorer and maintainer of this collection and he introduced me to collector Chuck and I had the pleasure of visiting this awesome collection last month while passing through IL. All of these cars are immaculate, I mean if there is such thing as "perfect", these are!!! Bill will sometimes get the comment about these cars being '"over-restored" and his response is "well as much time and money being spent on this restoration I am not going to do over-spray and orange peel!" .

This link is a video of them and in it is a quote of Chuck's that really drove a reality to me, "we are never owners of a car, only care givers for awhile". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZijWKBDqcVM

[Mcronk]

Originally Posted by nas t eh

Waiting a few years, if you are young enough, could save you a bunch of money if there is a particular car you want. If you have to have the car now, maybe this is the auction, with all this supply there should be some better buys.

The last few years my friend and I attend and think this is the year prices are going to head down. Each year we walk away amazed at how much money there is out there still. I call some of it "Boomer" money. Folks recently retired with fat 401ks and either had to let go of their muscle cars for family and career or never were able to get one before. However with the big downturn on Wall Street those 401ks took a hit. It will be very interesting to see this auction. A lot of high profile cars available. The question will be if there are enough people willingly to bid these cars up. I think there are some cars that will break records. One of two things could happen. The lesser cars might get more attention because prices will skyrocket on high profile cars or there will not be enough money to support them all.

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by Mcronk

For some collectors they are "aging" out. Their collections have become a responsibility they no longer want. Others may feel the market has peaked or is peaking and are looking to cash out before a down turn. A lot of different reasons for collectors to sell. But my feeling is some are trying to get out while the market has been way up lately.

I agree that collectors are aging out, but what will the next generation collect? Pickings get kind of slim after 1973 or so unless you're into Mustang II's, anemic smogged F-bodies, etc. Maybe collectors will stick with the 60's/early 70's musclecars?

[Mcronk]

Haggerty has a lot of data from their insurance business and tracking auction values. I read an interesting article that they are seeing a younger crowd insuring musclecars. However what becomes "collectible" or sought after tends to follow demographics. In other words what people cherished/desired in their teen and early adult years they seek out when in their peak earning years.

So cars of the 80s and 90s are on the rise. Most of these are Japanese imports and the sportier models Supras, Z cars, and European sport models of this era as well. Unfortunately not much to brag about on our side of the pond during the 80s. The Buick Grand National/GNX has a strong following, possibly the 1989 25th Anniversary TTA will get long deserved recognition. I owned one back in the 2000s and it was treated like a red headed step child. A few Corvette models, IROC Camaros, early 5.0 Mustangs and not much else to get excited about on American cars.

[besserspat]

Thats just another proof that you have to build, restore and drive what makes you happy and stop worry about market values or "investment".

Here in the north east, european and japanese cars always been extremely popular, I grew up in the late 70s -80s so obviously those cars made an impact on me. While my friends dads we're neck deep in the "street rod" and "hot rod culture , those 30s to early 60s cars really never did it for me.

While some would call this hoarding, I collect vintage cars and motorcycle and have quite a variety of styles and brands. That said as I am getting older I find myself lusting over cars I never really wanted before like a simplistic hot rodded '32 coupe or a sexy '61 Catalina Bubbletop for sunday drives.

So I wouldnt worry too much for the younger gearheads, sure they will first favor their teenage crushes like Iroc-Z, 300Zx and 5.0L mustangs, have you seen the prices clean rust free Civics, Integras, CRX and VW GTI from the 80s and 90s are going for lately?

At the same time when my 16 yo daughter comes camping with her friends at my farm, the boys are all over my little car collection and are really impressed ,even by the slowest vintage cars I own

When I asked my daughter , of all my cars what do you want to drive , she picked my "sun baked" 1979 Silverado C-10...

So again just enjoy the ride, dont worry too much about resale value, because lots of boomers are about to liquidate their car collections in order to enjoy some travels and simpler living before life catches up to them...

Happy New year everyone

[necdb3]

Originally Posted by Mcronk

The last few years my friend and I attend and think this is the year prices are going to head down. Each year we walk away amazed at how much money there is out there still. I call some of it "Boomer" money. Folks recently retired with fat 401ks and either had to let go of their muscle cars for family and career or never were able to get one before. However with the big downturn on Wall Street those 401ks took a hit. It will be very interesting to see this auction. A lot of high profile cars available. The question will be if there are enough people willingly to bid these cars up. I think there are some cars that will break records. One of two things could happen. The lesser cars might get more attention because prices will skyrocket on high profile cars or there will not be enough money to support them all.

I hope you're right and the values fall. It would make buying a few more a lot easier. Every year seems to be a record setter. At some point, it will fall.

[scott70]

How much do you think the values will fall? True muscle cars ( gto,SS,442, GS, certain mustangs,ETC.) from the mid 60's to early 70's will have their value go up and down over time like everything else but I dont think youll ever see them ever fall far enough to ever call them " affordable".

[Mcronk]

Originally Posted by besserspat

Thats just another proof that you have to build, restore and drive what makes you happy and stop worry about market values or "investment".

Here in the north east, european and japanese cars always been extremely popular, I grew up in the late 70s -80s so obviously those cars made an impact on me. While my friends dads we're neck deep in the "street rod" and "hot rod culture , those 30s to early 60s cars really never did it for me.

While some would call this hoarding, I collect vintage cars and motorcycle and have quite a variety of styles and brands. That said as I am getting older I find myself lusting over cars I never really wanted before like a simplistic hot rodded '32 coupe or a sexy '61 Catalina Bubbletop for sunday drives.

So I wouldnt worry too much for the younger gearheads, sure they will first favor their teenage crushes like Iroc-Z, 300Zx and 5.0L mustangs, have you seen the prices clean rust free Civics, Integras, CRX and VW GTI from the 80s and 90s are going for lately?

At the same time when my 16 yo daughter comes camping with her friends at my farm, the boys are all over my little car collection and are really impressed ,even by the slowest vintage cars I own

When I asked my daughter , of all my cars what do you want to drive , she picked my "sun baked" 1979 Silverado C-10...

So again just enjoy the ride, dont worry too much about resale value, because lots of boomers are about to liquidate their car collections in order to enjoy some travels and simpler living before life catches up to them...

Happy New year everyone

Great advice! I own my cars because I like to drive and show them. It is not about what they are worth as much as it is about reminding me of a time and place in my life. I have held title to over 36 Pontiacs and hope to own a few more before it is all over!

[Mcronk]

Originally Posted by scott70

How much do you think the values will fall? True muscle cars ( gto,SS,442, GS, certain mustangs,ETC.) from the mid 60's to early 70's will have their value go up and down over time like everything else but I dont think youll ever see them ever fall far enough to ever call them " affordable".

Affordable means different things to different people. I agree values will fluctuate but for late 60s early 70s cars the overall trend has been up. Some say the "average" muscle car will stabilize or decline as the age group that desired them ages out, think Model T and Model A cars. However in my opinion the musclecar era was unique both from technical and social aspects. Cars were a big part of life and our culture. I am sure they will go down in value at some point but the high profile cars will continue to appreciate long after the original generation is gone.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Currently over 4,100 cars consigned.
The auction lane will be like a cattle branding scenario.

Would be very nervous with a mid range type car without reserve, and a few shill bidders covering my azz.
Or even any car without a prime day & time slot.

The money cars will have plenty of money chasing them.
The rest could be hit & miss , with a lot of misses.
That's a metric sh!t-ton of cars

[Mcronk]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Currently over 4,100 cars consigned.
The auction lane will be like a cattle branding scenario.

Would be very nervous with a mid range type car without reserve, and a few shill bidders covering my azz.
Or even any car without a prime day & time slot.

The money cars will have plenty of money chasing them.
The rest could be hit & miss , with a lot of misses.
That's a metric sh!t-ton of cars

My thoughts exactly! I considered putting my 72 SJ Grand Prix in. With all the cars there it would simply get "lost in the shuffle". They did add a day to the auction but still they have to move a lot of cars across the stage. High profile cars will get their stage time but less profile may not get much time/attention.

[scott70]

Some good deals could be had on non rare or non special muscle cars. I would love to be there to atleast watch it. I've been playing the lottery but nothing yet. If I did I'd buy a warehouse first......

[tigergto]

I had hotel reservations to be at Mecum, Jan 10th and 11th, hopefully bidders pass in hand. I wasn’t going to be looking for anything special, but if a great deal presented itself, I would be ready.
Then Ian hit and I lost my winter home. Now I will be watching on TV from upstate NY.
By next year my new home will be ready and I hope to be there at Mecum.

[R 70 Judge]

Have any of these crossed the block yet?

[johnta1]

Here is a list I had wrote down:

Lot J16 Kissimmee 2023 Jan 4-15 (Friday Jan 6?)
1965 Pontiac Catalina
Automatic

Lot T147 Kissimmee 2023 Jan 4-15 (Thur Jan 12)
1968 Pontiac GTO Ram Air II
Original Drivetrain, 1 of 199 Produced
Jim Mattison's Aegean Blue RA II 4 speed GTO will be a no reserve auction at Mecum Kissimmee 2023. He sold the car back in 2016 at BJ auction.

Lot T291 Kissimmee 2023 Jan 4-15 (Thur Jan 12)
2002 Pontiac Trans Am Collector Edition
5.7L/325 HP, 6-Speed, 12,000 Miles

Lot F103.1 Kissimmee 2023 Jan 4-15 (Fri Jan 13)
2002 Pontiac Trans Am Collector Edition

Lot F104 Kissimmee 2023 Jan 4-15 (Fri Jan 13)
2002 Pontiac Trans Am Collector Edition Convertible

Lot F111 Kissimmee 2023 Jan 4-15 (Fri Jan 13)
1970 Pontiac GTO Judge Ram Air IV Convertible
1 of 7 with Automatic, POCI Senior Gold Winner

Lot F112 Kissimmee 2023 Jan 4-15 (Fri Jan 13)
1969 Pontiac GTO Judge Ram Air IV
400/370 HP, 1 of 58 with Automatic

Lot F113 Kissimmee 2023 Jan 4-15 (Fri Jan 13)
1969 Pontiac GTO Judge Ram Air IV
400/370 HP, 1 of 239 with 4-Speed

Lot F114 Kissimmee 2023 Jan 4-15 (Fri Jan 13)
1970 Pontiac GTO Judge Ram Air IV
400/370 HP, 1 of 327 with 4-Speed

Lot F115 Kissimmee 2023 Jan 4-15 (Fri Jan 13)
1970 Pontiac GTO Judge Ram Air IV
Unrestored, 1 of 327 with 4-Speed

Lot F116 Kissimmee 2023 Jan 4-15 (Fri Jan 13)
1970 Pontiac GTO Judge Ram Air IV
400/370 HP, 1 of 327 with 4-Speed

Lot F117 Kissimmee 2023 Jan 4-15 (Fri Jan 13)
1970 Pontiac GTO Ram Air IV
400/370 HP, 1 of 302 with 4-Speed

Lot F118 Kissimmee 2023 Jan 4-15 (Fri Jan 13)
1969 Pontiac GTO Ram Air IV
400/370 HP, 1 of 310 with 4-Speed

Lot F119 Kissimmee 2023 Jan 4-15 (Fri Jan 13)
1970 Pontiac GTO Ram Air IV
400/370 HP, 1 of 302 with 4-Speed

Lot F130.1 Kissimmee 2023 Jan 4-15 (Fri Jan 13)
1970 Pontiac GTO Judge Ram Air IV
400/370 HP, 4-Speed

Lot F152 Kissimmee 2023 Jan 4-15 (Fri Jan 13)
1969 Pontiac GTO Judge
400/366 HP, 4-Speed

Lot F159 Kissimmee 2023 Jan 4-15 (Fri Jan 13)
1970 Pontiac GTO Judge
400/366 HP, Factory Air

Lot F215 Kissimmee 2023 Jan 4-15 (Fri Jan 13)
1970 Pontiac GTO Convertible
455/360 HP, Build Sheet

Lot F267 Kissimmee 2023 Jan 4-15 (Fri Jan 13)
1971 Pontiac GTO Convertible
455 CI, 1 of 91 Produced

Lot S87 Kissimmee 2023 Jan 4-15 (Sat Jan 14)
1969 Pontiac GTO Judge
400 CI, 4-Speed, Protect-O-Plate

Lot S111 Kissimmee 2023 Jan 4-15 (Sat Jan 14)
1970 Pontiac GTO Judge Ram Air IV Convertible
400/370 HP, 1 of 7 with Automatic

Lot S229 Kissimmee 2023 Jan 4-15 (Sat Jan 14)
1974 Pontiac Trans Am Super Duty
455/290 HP, Automatic

[1965gp]

The prices posted so far are pretty positive.

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by 1965gp

The prices posted so far are pretty positive.

From a buyer's perspective or a seller's perspective?

[1965gp]

The more I see- both. Very nice 3rd Gen for $13k, low mile 4th Gen for $6k, nice 68 GTO for $38k

But then there is a 69 bird 350 convertible for 88k, 65 2+2 for $60k, 68 Firebird 400 convertible for $95k, 73 LeMans for $32k, 4 door grandville for $38k, 87 TA for $33k

[Mcronk]

I have attended 3 days so far and have been tracking the GTOs and a few other Pontiacs. Whether you hate it or like it there is a lot of money still out there chasing these cars. Prices for some models are getting close to record levels and we are not yet to the high profile cars!

In my opinion the most over spent is the 69 350 Convertible Firebird at $88k. Today another candidate for that list was the 66 GTO Convertible at $88k. In less than 2 minutes I saw so many things wrong with that car and at best paint was a 10 footer.

Surprisingly the 68 400 4 speed Convetible Firebird at $95,700 was a lot of money. Car was gorgeous and restored to high level but a couple years ago $50k would have bought that car.

Today the high water mark for a GTO was $93,500 for the 1969 Verdoro Green RA III 4 speed convertible with black top and interior. Car was finished nicely but not quite concours level. Several items underhood were either missing or incorrect as well as some filler cracking in the passenger quarter panel. A rare car with only 249 made.

All I can say is it will be a sh-t show next Thursday, Friday, Saturday when the RA IV and Judge cars start crossing the stage. I think there will be record prices for some of these models.

Crowds today were large and this is not the peak time slots. The most people I have ever seen at this auction was when the Bullit movie car was sold. We may see that surpassed next Saturday.

[Mcronk]

Originally Posted by 1965gp

The more I see- both. Very nice 3rd Gen for $13k, low mile 4th Gen for $6k, nice 68 GTO for $38k

But then there is a 69 bird 350 convertible for 88k, 65 2+2 for $60k, 68 Firebird 400 convertible for $95k, 73 LeMans for $32k, 4 door grandville for $38k, 87 TA for $33k

Did you see the Mayfair Maize 68 in person? It looks a lot better in the pictures than in person. Has a 69 steering wheel as well as a lot of parts from various years. I guess I am "picky". Saw the 67 GTO convertible today that bid to $75k Bid Goes On. The GTO emblems for the quarter panels were mounted about 3" too high and crooked!