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#21
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Lower heat rejection is WHY you have to run a point to point and a half higher compression ratios with aluminum heads verses iron heads. Heat IS horsepower….
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“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” Dr. Thomas Sowell |
#22
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What casting would be replicated? Like a 12 or 13?
Have to then make intake decisions based on cross over if used on a 72 and up. All the bolt holes? A original 70 head can't run newer power steering bracket set up. Some things to nail down to expand the market so these would sell.
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"The Future Belongs to those who are STILL Willing to get their Hands Dirty" .. my Grandfather |
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#23
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Pipe dream in my opinion.
I don’t see anyone with the capital to take on such a project finding it would be financially feasible. I would think casting and machining cast iron wouldn’t be any cheaper than aluminum. Going to aluminum heads and blocks is a step forward, cast iron is a step backwards. Aluminum blocks and heads are what will sell, cast iron not so much. Guys going to LS platforms do it partially to get an affordable all aluminum engine. Coming up with an aluminum block that’s a little more affordable than what’s currently being offered might help but probably won’t happen due to the limited volume Not enough of a market for an aftermarket cast iron head to encourage someone with deep pockets to take a chance on it. The Butlers thought about that once many years ago and I guess they thought better of it and decided not to pursue it.
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1964 Tempest Coupe LS3/4L70E/3.42 1964 Le Mans Convertible 421 HO/TH350/2.56 2002 WS6 Convertible LS1/4L60E/3.23 |
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#24
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Quote:
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“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” Dr. Thomas Sowell |
#25
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If I'm switching heads, they're not gonna be stock irons. That goes for any engine platform, not just Pontiac.
The reduction of weight and resistance to detonation is more than enough for me to choose aluminum heads over irons.
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"Those poor souls have made the fatal mistake of surrounding us. Now we can fire in any direction" 1970 Trans Am RAIII 4 speed 1971 Trans Am 5.3 LM7 1977 Trans Am W72 Y82 1987 Grand National |
#26
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Quote:
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“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” Dr. Thomas Sowell |
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#27
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Quote:
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“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” Dr. Thomas Sowell |
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#28
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I remember at one Pontiac Southern Nationals in Dallas Butler had some he was trying to bring to market that never happened. I want to think round ports.
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Skip Fix 1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever! 1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand 1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project 2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4 1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project 1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs |
#29
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I would buy some
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#30
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I think it will all come down to economics. If as stated the head would be delivered with flow numbers on par with the KRE and Edelobrock offerings and it undercuts that price. If the only sacrifice to saving a couple hundred bucks is 60 lbs of weight, I think the product would be viable.
If the margins are such that this head can't undercut the KRE and Edelobrock offering, then I don't think it has much of a market.
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-Jason 1969 Pontiac Firebird |
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#31
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1 to 1.5 more compression would allow a more radical camshaft for the same octane fuel without sacrificing torque or engine vacuum.
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#32
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I would be keen on a repop iron head with 280 cfm out of the box. The trend i would be happy to start is to sell my PMD iron to the resto folks, perhaps bare and reuse my 1-piece valves and such on the new iron.
Iron is the right material for all-season reliability. |
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#33
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A new iron head that’s less expensive simply because of the material used isn’t gonna happen.
If you’re willing to pony up aluminum head money then maybe, but again any savvy businessman who is familiar with aftermarket Pontiac heads understands that 90+% of the potential buyers will want aluminum heads. As much as I like the idea I don’t see it as being realistic to expect to see a relatively inexpensive 280 cfm iron Pontiac head to make it to market. I don’t see why iron is needed for all season reliability, aluminum engines are pretty much dominant in today’s automobiles.
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1964 Tempest Coupe LS3/4L70E/3.42 1964 Le Mans Convertible 421 HO/TH350/2.56 2002 WS6 Convertible LS1/4L60E/3.23 |
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#34
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Quote:
Jim's idea was ro reproduce RAIV heads with date codes that customers that were restorers, needed. At one time Jim was a big time GTO restorer. Several Pontiac parts companies, like Ames even had them in their catalog. I think Vic took on Arnie's dare to start making their first (round port), at maybe 50 sets at a time. The iron head deal is just a dream right now but... I believe a 280-290 cfm "D" port head could be produced. If I had a finger in the deal, at all. I would try to get one of Jim Hand's 6X heads for a a pattern that could be ported more!!! A slightly longer valve may be needed for the air flow. Pontiac valves are already in the heavy side, so what? A serious Pontiac street enging isn't going to get twisted to 9000RPM's like a SBC CAN. Just the fact that iron heads are less expensive t h an aluminum heads would help them sell. These "dream" heads could have better ports (both sides), better chambers, and a better spark plug location AND none of these mods would change ANY of the parts needed to get a rebuilt engine going!!! Yes, it's a big dream, especially with goofy manufacturing difficulties. I keep thinking of how well Jim Hand was able to make his wagon run withe O.E. modified parts. He was only limited by the production engineering that designed basic transportation engine parts!!!
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1977 Black Trans Am 180 HP Auto, essentially base model T/A. I'm the original owner, purchased May 7, 1977. Shut it off Shut it off Buddy, I just shut your Prius down... |
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#35
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What about any head cast iron or aluminum geared towards lower budget guys.
I mean a true entry level D-port heads with a 180~190cc intake runner and flow 230sh~240sh cfm(worh potential for more with porting) That could be bolted on using factory hardware instead of having to buy the special head bolts and provision for both style accessory brakes. Available in 72-87 cc chambers. From everything I've read, rebuilding cast iron heads almost isn't worth it, but current aluminum heads are still out of reach for many and overkill for 400 cube builds. Jmho
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78 T/A 4SPEED, Original paint, match #’s, mine since ‘99. 77 t/a sold 85 Monte Carlo SS sold 83 Mustang GT sold Last edited by phil400; 01-27-2023 at 07:04 PM. |
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#36
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Want good Pontiac heads?
Then save your money and support the Pontiac people who have already taken the risk and invested in bringing aluminum heads of many different flavors to market. If we keep supporting them they’ll have a chance of staying in business into the future. Looking for a cheaper alternative new cast iron head to what’s already available is unrealistic in my opinion. As was already stated here there are plenty of iron heads waiting to be rebuilt and upgraded, you just have to understand that bringing them back to life with quality porting work and good parts isn’t cheap either and never has been.
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1964 Tempest Coupe LS3/4L70E/3.42 1964 Le Mans Convertible 421 HO/TH350/2.56 2002 WS6 Convertible LS1/4L60E/3.23 |
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#37
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Just like the last time, many years ago, that this topic came up, I'd buy a pair of reproduction high quality moderately better flowing cast iron round port heads, $1200-1400 max, no valves installed.
Musts: -round port configuration - 80cc to max of 87 cc chambers, - external appearance, the outer edge below the valve cover area needs to look like OEM round port heads, not straight up and down like the available Edelbrocks & Soeedmasters. - Don't need date codes. Most RA4 heads & early 71 style 455 HO heads didn't even have a date code on them, disappeared when center head bolt hole under valve cover was machined
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Buzzards gotta eat... same as worms. |
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#38
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I am in also. $800 for a pair is cheaper than a single speedmaster head.
No round ports, must be D ports. Would like raise boss’s that can have letter CNC’d to look halve way authentic as a stealth head. Would like to see 270 flow out of the box, 200 exhaust in a d port configuration. Quite a few venues like pulling, circle track, and stock appearing drag racing aluminum heads are not allowed, and require iron heads. Like the Mopar 542 we built for F.A.S.T. racing, it can run Stage 4 or 5 Mopar performance heads and still be in the rules. Thicker castings than anything available OEM, room for huge max wedge ports. BBC and SBC both have options similar. Nothing like that available for a Pontiac in a a round port or a D. The other thing is while there are plenty of D ports around to rebuild, you still end up with a 200 cfm head. Fewer and fewer porting options, then once ported you have a fortune in those iron heads. I have several iron d ports combos that run on pump gas that are as high or higher than many peoples aluminum heads. Over 11:1 on 91 octane. I got there mostly by reconfiguring the ports with extensive port work, changing valves, increasing port volumes, and some chamber work.. People are quick to attribute the performance gains and raise in compression to a switch to aluminum heads. But if you had a modern designed chamber with high flowing ports I think generally most people would be shocked how close that would come to aluminum heads performance with an iron head for pump gas. The same thing shows up in other brands that have the same head offered in aluminum or iron. Pontiac has no such option. . Last edited by Jay S; 01-27-2023 at 08:18 PM. |
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#39
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I think that a reasonably priced cast iron replacement head is a great idea for the enthusiast but a poor idea for the manufacturer. As much as I would like a set I don't think there is enough of a market for it to be profitable.
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#40
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Quote:
__________________
Skip Fix 1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever! 1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand 1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project 2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4 1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project 1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs |
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