[KS circutguy]

Great info here;
short video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyy7ZekQ8do
more info;
The Automobile Association of America (AAA) conducted an independent test on the impact gasoline detergent levels, and the results were quite shocking! This video reviews the results from that report and provides context as to the ramifications of fuel injector deposits. https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/f...ull-Report.pdf

Gasoline engines must atomize and then vaporize the fuel for it to burn. When injectors have deposits, they don't atomize the fuel as well as clean injectors. As such, fuel dilution of the motor oil increases, which increases engine wear.

To find Top Tier Gas Near You, check out: https://www.toptiergas.com

[Mr_GTO]

I'll add to this. Lake has some pretty good video's on oil and fuel. I'd advise everyone to go through and watch his videos that have to do with Oil, fuel, wear, etc. He backs up a lot of his findings with test results such as filling your oil filter with oil when you put it on.

Here is a newer one on fuel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAmEGI7xvBw

[KS circutguy]

Originally Posted by Mr_GTO

I'll add to this. Lake has some pretty good video's on oil and fuel. I'd advise everyone to go through and watch his videos that have to do with Oil, fuel, wear, etc. He backs up a lot of his findings with test results such as filling your oil filter with oil when you put it on.

Here is a newer one on fuel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAmEGI7xvBw

Absolutely,
He's the one that sold me on the Valvoline 5w30 "Restore and Protect" for my 1997 328I bimmer.
The stuff is really great oil.

[soupman]

You know I not sure I buy into all this keeping the injectors clean with top tier gas. I have been driving for 50 years, plus I drive an average of 20,000 miles per year, I have owned many cars throughout this time. My fuel injection cars have all gone over 150,000 - 200,000 miles, and I have never once had the fuel injectors cleaned or serviced on any of my FI cars. I don’t seek out the top tier gas stations, just my local convenience store stations. Never had misfiring or stumbling issues.
Maybe I am lucky, not saying this is wrong, but I never have had any issues with FI, just my own experience.

[Mr_GTO]

Originally Posted by soupman

You know I not sure I buy into all this keeping the injectors clean with top tier gas. I have been driving for 50 years, plus I drive an average of 20,000 miles per year, I have owned many cars throughout this time. My fuel injection cars have all gone over 150,000 - 200,000 miles, and I have never once had the fuel injectors cleaned or serviced on any of my FI cars. I don’t seek out the top tier gas stations, just my local convenience store stations. Never had misfiring or stumbling issues.
Maybe I am lucky, not saying this is wrong, but I never have had any issues with FI, just my own experience.

You're very lucky. Injectors do clog up.

[KS circutguy]

They can still be partially clogged and still run decent.
Just not as good as clean, the spray pattern won't be optimum.
Not worth the risk. imo
Also keeping fuel filter serviced is of upmost important nowadays.

[72projectbird]

Eh, I've only had my injectors cleaned and flow balanced on high horse and forced induction stuff.

My GMC just rolled over 247k miles on the stock injectors, and it doesn't live the easiest life. It has a large-ish camshaft, long tubes, converter and other basic bolt ons. It routinely sees 6500 rpm. I run whatever fuel in it, nothing special. Watching the data while on the dyno didn't show anything abnormal.

That said, I think everyone who is a car guy understands that proper atomization of fuel is important.

[dataway]

My 2011 GMC did run noticeably better after I did a few 1100 mile trips putting in a can of Techron at the beginning of each trip. But then it could have just blown out some cobwebs as before that it rarely saw highway driving.

I did find a local gas station close to my new home in TN that for the first time since I owned the truck it behaved poorly until I filled it up from a reputable station. The place very much looked like a place that wouldn't have good gas, my guess is water in their tanks.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by KS circutguy

They can still be partially clogged and still run decent.
Just not as good as clean, the spray pattern won't be optimum.
Not worth the risk. imo
Also keeping fuel filter serviced is of upmost important nowadays.

At my school, we have 2 fuel injector test stands much like that picture. We have tested hundreds of injectors with this unit. The primary take away for me is: The injectors can have ANY of the spray patterns pictured and the engine will still "run and feel fine" to 95% of the drivers out there in their daily drivers. Only someone who is extremely "tuned-in" to exactly how their car runs will notice the difference unless the injector is clogged to the point where little to no fuel flows out. My statement applies to PORT injected engines, not direct injected engines. This is because the warm intake tract still gives the cylinder time to heat and vaporize at least some of the injected fuel, even if not atomized properly. You may notice a small decrease in fuel mileage as well with a lousy spray pattern and the all too familiar "poor catalyst efficiency codes".

A direct injected engine however is more likely to run poorly if clogged because there is a greater chance of liquid fuel droplets to make it inside the cylinder. These issues start to show up just after the warranty expires. Around 60K miles. Top tier fuel, and/or an occasional bottle of Techron or similar cleaner probably isn't a bad idea. Once a fuel injector gets bad enough to really feel while driving, no chemical cleaners will fix them in my experience without removal.

[KS circutguy]

Thing is the unburned fuel in both scenarios ends up in the oil or out the exhaust.
Fuel dilution in the oil is bad,raw fuel in a cat is very expensive nowadays.
Not a fan of Direct Injection,stupid idea.

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

At my school, we have 2 fuel injector test stands much like that picture. We have tested hundreds of injectors with this unit. The primary take away for me is: The injectors can have ANY of the spray patterns pictured and the engine will still "run and feel fine" to 95% of the drivers out there in their daily drivers. Only someone who is extremely "tuned-in" to exactly how their car runs will notice the difference unless the injector is clogged to the point where little to no fuel flows out. My statement applies to PORT injected engines, not direct injected engines. This is because the warm intake tract still gives the cylinder time to heat and vaporize at least some of the injected fuel, even if not atomized properly. You may notice a small decrease in fuel mileage as well with a lousy spray pattern and the all too familiar "poor catalyst efficiency codes".

A direct injected engine however is more likely to run poorly if clogged because there is a greater chance of liquid fuel droplets to make it inside the cylinder. These issues start to show up just after the warranty expires. Around 60K miles. Top tier fuel, and/or an occasional bottle of Techron or similar cleaner probably isn't a bad idea. Once a fuel injector gets bad enough to really feel while driving, no chemical cleaners will fix them in my experience without removal.

THIS. Over many years I performed many injector tests on a test stand and sonic cleaning set-up. The take-away I had was the same as mgarblik's. The stand did help locate leaky injectors after the power was cut and they sat closed under pressure. Still, that was exceedingly rare. With regular (non port) fuel injectors, it was amazing how reliable they were. Even with a ton of miles on them.

[MatthewKlein]

Originally Posted by KS circutguy

Great info here;
short video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyy7ZekQ8do
more info;
The Automobile Association of America (AAA) conducted an independent test on the impact gasoline detergent levels, and the results were quite shocking! This video reviews the results from that report and provides context as to the ramifications of fuel injector deposits. https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/f...ull-Report.pdf

Gasoline engines must atomize and then vaporize the fuel for it to burn. When injectors have deposits, they don't atomize the fuel as well as clean injectors. As such, fuel dilution of the motor oil increases, which increases engine wear.

To find Top Tier Gas Near You, check out: https://www.toptiergas.com

Nice video. Thanks for posting.

In our shop, my experience has been injectors do not get clogged the way they did 20-30 years ago. We used to clean them regularly, now rarely. Not once a year. Less than that.

We do however see a lot of engines using oil. Vehicles built before around 1990 would burn or leak enough oil to add between oil changes. Engines from 1990 to 2005 did not burn any really. It was between 2005-10 that we were told at class that oil change recommendations were being extended by the factory and that we should go along with that. No more 3000 mile intervals, 7500 or more.

So for years we went along and changed by the factory recommendation. Well, we now see a ton of vehicles using oil again. And from my experience its from stuck piston rings, not bad fuel injectors. I no longer recommend anything more than a 5000 mile oil change.

Spoke with my BG Products rep just now to refresh my memory. According to him modern low tension rings are around 8lbs compared to the old engines with 30lbs. When the rings start to stick from deposits blow by increases. PCV brings that blow by through the intake coating the valves, piston top and rings.

We have had to clean the combustion chambers of a few GDI engines recently due to deposits causing a misfire.

My 2¢

[The Champ]

To those that don't think Top Tier fuel helps:

How do you know that you haven't been running Top Tier fuel.

It's been around for over two decades. There are well over 60 different gas station chains that have Top Tier fuel. You would expect that Shell, Texaco, BP, Citgo, Sunoco, Chevron, etc would be Top Tier. But many C store brands carry it also. Cenex does too.. Costco fuel is Top Tier.

This year marks the 20th anniversary of the TOP TIER*™ Approved Fuels Program, an initiative that has reshaped the landscape of fuel detergency standards and clean engine vehicle performance since its inception. Collaboratively introduced in 2004 by General Motors, BMW, Toyota, and Honda, TOP TIER™ Approved Gasoline and Diesel have become synonymous with exceptional fuel quality and engine care. Now, they are joined by seven more leading auto manufacturers including Audi, Daimler Truck, Ford, Mercedes-Benz, Navistar, Stellantis, Subaru of America, and Volkswagen.

Price wise, I don't have to pay more for Top Tier fuel.

Costco is typically less expensive than virtually all the unrated fuels.

I use a lot of Shell gas as I belong to their rewards program that guarantees me $.10 per gallon off the pump price and I use get cents off per gallon frequently from my grocery and other purchases. I've had up to $3.00 off per gallon more that a few times.

In my area you can hardly find a town that doesn't have at least 1 Kwik Trip (I have 14 in Rochester, MN) and they feature Top Tier fuel and are always competitive on price.

[RocktimusPryme]

How many people would this realistically affect? The testing stated that switching to a fuel with an enhanced additive package reversed the effects of running non top-tier fuels.

Do I buy cheap gas? Sure. If my options are even otherwise I buy the cheapest product. But I don't plan out my stops and make sure Im buying the cheapest gas I can. I get fuel when and where I need fuel. Heck, if there are three stations on a corner I pull into the station that's easiest to get in and out of, not the cheaper one.
That means sometimes its from a Chevron or Sunoco, and sometimes its from a budget station. Therefore, per the testing in the AAA PDF running those tanks of enhanced additive fuels Im counteracting any negative effects of the cheaper fuel.

Im sure there are miserly people out there who never once put any top tier fuel in their care but I have to think there are more of me out there than otherwise. I just cant see many people seeing the maximum negative effects. So its not that I don't buy it, its just that I don't buy it as a realistic problem for most drivers.

[tstroud]

I work in a petroleum distribution company and in central Iowa the way fuel works is that it doesn’t matter if our transport truck loads with branded or unbranded fuel it is the same fuel coming out of the pipeline. All the gas stations in this area get their fuel out of the same pipe. They just put their own additives package in. The base fuel is the same no matter the brand. Only the price is different. We can load unleaded or gasohol (E10). The BP branded fuel is exactly the same as the unbranded fuel except for the price. The same with diesel fuel. There is red or clear, #1 or #2. A different brand gets you a different price but the fuel is the same.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by tstroud

I work in a petroleum distribution company and in central Iowa the way fuel works is that it doesn’t matter if our transport truck loads with branded or unbranded fuel it is the same fuel coming out of the pipeline. All the gas stations in this area get their fuel out of the same pipe. They just put their own additives package in. The base fuel is the same no matter the brand. Only the price is different. We can load unleaded or gasohol (E10). The BP branded fuel is exactly the same as the unbranded fuel except for the price. The same with diesel fuel. There is red or clear, #1 or #2. A different brand gets you a different price but the fuel is the same.

Having owned my own service station, as well as delivered bulk fuel for Advantage tank lines, this is accurate.

The fuel is identical usually based on specific gravity weight, until the additives are added, as it's loaded into tankers for distribution. As it's loaded the ethanol is also added to adjust the octane levels from the base pure gasoline.

I've had unbranded fuel that is much more suited to run in an ICE engine than some branded fuels are. I've also run fuels that came from the same pumps, same station that upon putting it into the tank I lose approximately 1 MPG over the previous tankful.

The last tankful I had using the onboard fuel mileage instrument went from 21.7 to the current tankful at 20.8. All summer long I've had this happening with 90+ non ethanol in my 2005 LS2 GTO. Within 20 miles you'll see the instant mileage either gain, or drop off, or stay steady, depending upon what the BTU quality of the fuel is.

When I had my service station the ability to resist knock was always changing depending upon weather my fuel came from the Pennzoil refinery, or from the bargain basement United refinery. The bill of lading told me instantly where the fuel originated from. United knocked and rattled in all my cars, The Pennzoil always ran much better because they didn't cheat on the octane. Oil companies trade fuel to save on shipping costs depending on how close their outlet is to the retailer's location, and what fuel they have on hand when it's ordered.

In NW PA United has always been crap fuel for over 100 years, and still is. Because they actually refine a good amount of their product, it doesn't come from a pipeline like most major distributors source from. They can control the specific gravity of the end product independent of pipeline fuels. Their product is likely always at the lowest possible point, if not lower than minimum specifications.

There's lots of nuances that the average consumer never knows about when it comes to how, and where their gasoline comes from.

[The Champ]

One of the benefits of buying a branded is fuel is that typically, you get what you pay for.

Toyota contracted with ACDelco a number of years ago to test fuel samples from random stations in MO to learn about fuel quality. One of the key takeaways was that some unbranded stations, with pumps labeled E10, were running a much higher concentration of corn syrup. Ethanol is much cheaper than gas, so even though they were cheaper per gallon, you weren't getting any kind of real deal.

[KS circutguy]

Originally Posted by tstroud

I work in a petroleum distribution company and in central Iowa the way fuel works is that it doesn’t matter if our transport truck loads with branded or unbranded fuel it is the same fuel coming out of the pipeline. All the gas stations in this area get their fuel out of the same pipe. They just put their own additives package in. The base fuel is the same no matter the brand. Only the price is different. We can load unleaded or gasohol (E10). The BP branded fuel is exactly the same as the unbranded fuel except for the price. The same with diesel fuel. There is red or clear, #1 or #2. A different brand gets you a different price but the fuel is the same.

Not new news, base motor oils are the same deal, only the additive packs that are sold individually are different.

[tstroud]

That’s true. Speaking of base oils. I get to tour the Northland Oil facility next month. That will be interesting.