[esahlin]

I'm having trouble getting my 462 to re-start after warm-up. After the engines is hot (180-190) and I shut down the motor the starter has trouble turning the engine over and even at times seems to bind up the starter. This happens even after idling in the garage after the engine warms. I think Ive addressed all the starting system type of issues so just yesterday I looked into my spark advance at idle. At 1000 rpm the total advance is 25 degrees. The engine (462) loves all the advance at idle and has great throttle response and drives well. Cam (XE 284) idles rough and wants 950-1000 rpm for 11 inches of vacuum.

At 1000rpm
Initial timing 12 deg
vacuum advance 10
Mechanical 3

At 3000 rpm
Intitial 12
Mechanical 22

engine:
462
Kre dport 85cc 310cfm
XE 284 cam
1.65 HS rollers
Edel RPM
MSD ready to run 8528 distributor (has vacuum advance)
Holley 750 DP each throttle plate has 3/32 holes
Idles at about 13.7-14.0 air fuel ratio.

Starting system:
Battery in trunk 1 gauge + cable 0 gauge grounds
Ford solenoid located in trunk next to battery
Summit mini starter

Ive tried reducing the initial down 5 degrees to 7 initial to bring total spark advance at 1000 rpm to 20 total but still have a hot start issue and the engine is much more "grumpy" idling.

Is 25 degrees of total advance too much at 950-1000 rpm idle ? Does this seem fine and maybe I should target an issue with my starting sytem.

Ive read on the board here that others are running this much advance at idle and I dont know if they experience Hot start issues.

[Tom Vaught]

I did the battery in the trunk deal and "00" cable and ground all the way to the starter relay/block deal. Course I had a rusty frame after a couple of winters in Michigan going to college too.
\
I would up just opening up the ground wire to the points until I had a nice "head of steam" with the engine and then activated the ground wire to the distributor.

I had already wired that deal as a anti-theft circuit.

Tom V.

[TedRamAirII]

The engine cranking only see's the initial timing. If the solenoid is in the trunk, you may want to check that. Be sure you are getting maybe 11V under cranking load out of it. Be sure the engine and battery is grounded good to the frame. I think the frame is a better conductor than a cable. Put a voltmeter between the battery + and the solenoid output to the starter and crank it, any voltage reading, the solenoid isnt making good contact.

[esahlin]

Good point TedRamAir II about engine only seeing the initial timing during crank. That slipped my mind. I'll do the check on the solenoid and see what I get. Ive got a big 0 gauge ground from the battery right through the trunk pan to the rear frame rail under the battery. Another 0 gauge from the head to the frame in engine compartment and two other 10 gauge from heads to frame. Thx.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by TedRamAirII

The engine cranking only see's the initial timing. If the solenoid is in the trunk, you may want to check that. Be sure you are getting maybe 11V under cranking load out of it. Be sure the engine and battery is grounded good to the frame. I think the frame is a better conductor than a cable. Put a voltmeter between the battery + and the solenoid output to the starter and crank it, any voltage reading, the solenoid isnt making good contact.

"Ive tried reducing the initial down 5 degrees to 7 initial to bring total spark advance at 1000 rpm to 20 total but still have a hot start issue and the engine is much more "grumpy" idling."

If the engine 5 degrees initial and still has a cranking issue, you have a current to the starter issue in my mind. One thought would be to carefully jumper across the solenoid and remove that part from the circuit. I am assuming that you have a normal starter solenoid system on the engine.

Tom V.

[AdamIsAdam]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

If the engine 5 degrees initial and still has a cranking issue, you have a current to the starter issue in my mind.
Tom V.

x2

This is not a timing issue. When I was dialing in my timing, I was having similar hot start issues. Turned out that my batter was not really fully charged even though I would have sworn it was. It's always on the tender now and I've never had a hot-start kickback again. My initial is 12* and my CR is 10:1.

[Tom Vaught]

Thanks for the post, Sir!

Tom V.

[esahlin]

So....taking the advices here....rigged up my volt meter with long leads so I could see voltage at starter, after Ford type solenoid in trunk and at Battery all during crank after the engine was warmed up to 180-200 deg.

Before crank battery cold: Battery voltage 12.7 volts

After 200 degree engine warmup battery voltage 12.7 volts

During Crank after 200 deg warmup:

*Starter voltage: 7-8 volts during crank

*Solenoid (in trunk next to battery) output voltage: 8-9 volts during crank

*Battery voltage (in trunk): 8-9 volts during crank

What should battery voltage be during crank?

Battery is 10 months old (Super Start Extreme from O-Reillys) and probably only has 50 start attempts on it.

Is the battery a POS?

[TedRamAirII]

I don't like that battery, take it back and get it load tested. The should give you another one, then do all the same tests again.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

It's been a while.....but as I recall, voltage drop below 10.2 volts, cranking, indicates a power supply problem, if checked @ the battery, then the battery is at fault. Now if the draw is only that high when hot, I'd be looking at the starter mainly.... and possibly wiring. Remove the coil wire to eliminate ignition timing from the cranking load and compare voltage.

[esahlin]

So after letting the engine cool for about 1 hour I check the battery voltage during crank (engine cold or about 120 degrees)) and the battery voltage dropped to around 10.5 or so and the car started right away.

I checked the voltage at the starter just after checking the battery voltage during crank cold and the starter voltage dropped to around 9.5 (engine cold or 120 degrees) and then the car would start right away.

So I let the engine run for a couple of minutes warming up to about 150. Shut it off and cranked....starter voltage drops to 8.5 and slower crank but starts.

So let it run for a couple of more minutes and then shut off try to restart and starter voltage is at 7-7.5 or so. And the crank is really slow and starter has tough time engaging flywheel.

So starter voltage keeps dropping during crank the hotter the engine gets.

The heat is definitely the direct factor.

So could the starter/solenoid be heating up and resistance up and drawing more amps and drawing the battery down?

[george kujanski]

When the starter cranks slowly, it draws more current from the battery. keep in mind the starter draws 300Amps give or take when cranking. That amount of current thru the battery causes a voltage drop at the terminals. You will probably never see 12.6 (battery rest terminal voltage) volts at the battery during cranking.

A hot engine requires more current to crank. A hot starter has higher resistance, therefore will draw less current, cranking more slowly, rinse and repeat.

It continues to go downhill.

George

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Disconnect coil wire/ignition. If no improvement, check wire connection @ starter...but likely the starter itself. My twosense. If a poor connection, the connection will get real hot.

[esahlin]

Ran a new 1 gauge ground cable from pass head to frame.....to ensure ground eventhough the other cable should have been fine.

Drove it around the block a couple times today......when cold started right up. Park in garage after engine warmed go for a restart cranks slow but starts. Shut off try again starter makes a bunch of noise clacking the gear against the flywheel teeth and barely turns over.

Took Pittsburgh Steeler City Firebird's advice ....remove coil wire/disable ignition......still wont turn over hot.

So I'm betting that if I take the battery out and haul it to O'reillys to get load tested....their gonna "test" it and say its good.....cause its performs fine when the engine is cold so why wouldnt it on their nice little test stand?

I thought this Summit mini starter was gonna be a holy grail solution but.....:-(

How bout the MSD Dynaforce starter? Supposed to turn over two dump-truck motors in the 120 degree heat of Death valley. The MSD Dynaforce Looks similar to the Powermaster UltraTorque 9410....but anyone know whats inside these starters that supposedly makes them so much more resistant to the Heat Soak problem?

Its more throwing money around but would be worth the money to me if it solved the heat soak issue.

[Tom Vaught]

Some of the MINI Starters are nothing but "I got your money, Sucker, Ha Ha"

Never could understand that deal vs a high quality GM full size starter with the extension sleeve going to the solenoid.

Tom V.

[Mister Pontiac]

Originally Posted by esahlin

I thought this Summit mini starter was gonna be a holy grail solution but.....:-(

How bout the MSD Dynaforce starter? Supposed to turn over two dump-truck motors in the 120 degree heat of Death valley. The MSD Dynaforce Looks similar to the Powermaster UltraTorque 9410....but anyone know whats inside these starters that supposedly makes them so much more resistant to the Heat Soak problem?

Its more throwing money around but would be worth the money to me if it solved the heat soak issue.

You've heard a lot of good advice here, including my age old "trick" of the ignition kill switch too. Sounds like you're on the right track now with a "meh" starter. Frustrating I know.

I'm limping my GM high torque unit along in my '67 GTO too, but she's getting tired during the hottest summer days, even with the kill switch helping things along. Been toying with the idea of a mini-starter myself, but not sure which one(s) are worth much either. I'm curious to hear what experiences others have had, and hoping guys will chime in with their experiences.

[lust4speed]

I've probably just about got one of every starter in my different Pontiac's - from stock starter to UMI, Power Master, and Summit. While I've fought all sorts of problems with the original starters, none of my mini starters have given me any problems. The Summit was responsible for awhile turning over the 14:1 455 drag engine and it did fine even in the worse hot start conditions.

Doesn't mean you don't have a bad one though. When I first read through your posts I was thinking to myself that you need a mini starter, but then found out you already had one. Listening to the hot start symptoms, it sounds like a starter that is crapping out when hot, and that has to also apply to the mini starter in this case. Any chance of borrowing another starter?

Only other thing I can think of is a bad terminal somewhere along the line. Was helping out a club member with a hot start problem and we weren't getting too far - everything was looking good. Luckily I brought along a friend that can't keep his hands off anything. He's farting around pushing and pulling on everything and making a pain of himself. Well, right up until the wire pulled right out of the connector on the brand new cable. Had to forgive him for being a PITA up to that point.

Anyway, keep an open mind and keep checking everything.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Did it do this when new or creep up on you?

If the battery is load tested, correctly, it will show if it is weak or not, hence load test name. Verify you have a good battery firstly, first step in an accurate electrical diagnostic routine is verify a good,fully charged battery. And good clean tight terminals(please no bolt on $2 terminal ends)
Assume nothing for a accurate diagnosis!

My bud mods and sells gear reduction (22RE?) Toyota starters for reverse mount SBC circle track motors. There are big and small motors.
The big(long) motored ones (quality new aftermarket factory replacements) easily turn over 15:1 430 SBC with 39* locked timing advance...with the ignition on, and after a red flag after running 8k for many laps.

Your summit starter is the same type starter with an aluminum machined block for mounting. (checked the site)....it's the short motor, they work but the long motor is much more powerful.

I've worked on many of these. If your handy, take it apart. Remove the 3 bolt cover and pull the plunger/contact disc.(don't lose the ball bearing under the stem if it has one) Either clean disc up or flip it over, and dress the two contacts the plunger connects when it pulls in and align them,the one the cable goes on gets rotated from tightening cable often. This is likely your bad connection. The contacts get burnt/hot from cranking with a low battery, as do the contacts in the Ford type solenoid(not easily serviced), easier to replace.


Some of the the motors that are being used are pure crap. Or you may only be using 2 of the 4 brushes, common failure, a broken/burnt wire to one of the brushes.


So do you have a jumper wire from the small terminal to the big one on the starter? .....and a good solid connection to the terminal ends of the jumper and posts

[esahlin]

Thanks for all the info.....and SteelCityFirebird for talking about your friends experience with the NipponDenso (Summit) type of starters and for telling me how to take it apart and what to look for.

Before taking in the Battery to be tested.....I decided to remove the starter and crack it open to see what it looked like. I watched a couple youtube videos on the NipponDenso type starters and how to crack em open and what to look for.

Here is some pics of a corroded messed up NipponDenso starter.

[esahlin]

In the pictures above some of the small copper wires attached to the plunger/solenoid contacts (first pic on left) have been heated up and the insulation is burned cracked around them. THe copper ring on the plunger has corrosion/pitting on it.

The corrosion around the brushes wiring pic 3 and 5 from left (I dont know the technical names for this stuff) came through the seal in the starter motor case. There is a very small O-ring case weather seal that moisture or whatever came through. Vids on youtube said to sometimes use rtv instead of the puny o-ring seal that comes stock.

So the corrosion even made it to the actual armature (pic 4) as you can see the "rust" corrosion on it in one spot.....there was another spot I didnt take pictures of. The magnets the armature spins inside of were scratched up pretty bad....from the corroded armature beating them up I am guessing.

A new plunger and copper contacts are sold in kits for $13. Pic 2 is of bottom of plunger..... that copper ring is jammed against the copper contacts in pic 1 when the solenoid is energized. )

I think this thing is scrap.