[Kevin E]

I'm going to look at a 1969 Judge that is for sale near me.It was recently for sale on Ebay(#554529758).I would greatly appreciate it if you Pontiac experts would take a look at the build sheet and the car(on ebay of course)and give me some input on whether its genuine and what to look for when I go see it.One thing that looks funny to me is the description on Ebay states 10 bolt posi.There's no posi on the build sheet and if there was would it be a 10 bolt?Thanks for any and all responses.I might be a Pontiac owner yet.


Kevin

[Kevin E]

I'm going to look at a 1969 Judge that is for sale near me.It was recently for sale on Ebay(#554529758).I would greatly appreciate it if you Pontiac experts would take a look at the build sheet and the car(on ebay of course)and give me some input on whether its genuine and what to look for when I go see it.One thing that looks funny to me is the description on Ebay states 10 bolt posi.There's no posi on the build sheet and if there was would it be a 10 bolt?Thanks for any and all responses.I might be a Pontiac owner yet.


Kevin

[1-GTO]

Kevin,I checked out the '69 Judge on E-bay your talking about.I didn't see any list of the Build sheet on there.Can you list the options and code numbers on your Post?As far as the 10 bolt rear end it could be correct.The 12 bolt rear ends didn't start on the GTO/LeMans until 1970.I would send the VIN number off to phs-online.com to verify if its a Factory Judge,then check all the codes and dates on the car to verify if it has the correct numbers matching engine trans. rear end etc..The $35.00 fee is well worth it if your going to spend that much money!

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GTO.....Gran Turismo Omologato,True Pontiac Excitement!

[Bermuda Blue]

Kevin:

The build sheet looks OK to me. But I think the seller is a clown or just ignorant.

He says the car is numbers matching and then 7 lines down mentions the edelbrock manifold and carb. You picked up on the posi. The car might have a posi now but it didnt ship with one. All 69 GTO's have 10 bolts.

He also said the car had 15000 miles on it when he bought it. Yeah right. Then why rebuit the motor.

Auto RA3's should idle well with good vacuum(manuals had the 744 cam which was kinda rough) so the cam installed is not numbers matching either. He mentions the brake "fade" at idle.

Painted stripes!! Havent seen that in years.

Quarters have been replaced. A hack job here is expensive to fix.

There are a few other funny little things. But all of this doesnt not mean the car is not worth a look. If the body is good, block, heads, transmission and rear end are correct, this would be a nice car.

The block is important. YZ should be stamped below the passenger head. The VIN should be stamped on the passenger side of the timing cover. The date code of the block (near distributor) should be before (but not more that a few weeks) of the body.

The heads should be 48's with a date code around the block's date.

These are the basics. Let me know if you need more info.

As mentioned by GTO, the $35 spent on PHS is well spent. Crooks will even fake build sheets.

[This message has been edited by Bermuda Blue (edited 02-17-2001).]

[1-GTO]

You have a good eye for checking out Pontiacs Burmuda Blue!I've read that the 366 HP RA III got the #48 heads on (manual trans.) models,and the (automatics) got either the #16 or #62 heads.Some of the automatics may have been fitted with the #48 heads.Is this correct Burmuda?

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GTO.....Gran Turismo Omologato,True Pontiac Excitement!

[Bermuda Blue]

GTO

Good comment

I'm pretty sure that RA III motors where equiped with the 48's regardless of tranny. There are always exceptions in the pontiac numbers game so this is not written in stone.

The real puzzle with the 48's is that they are not exclusive RA III heads like published. I had a 69 GTO, 350 HP, 3 speed with 48's.

In this case if the date code on the heads are matching and the heads are one of the numbers you mentioned, they may correct.

This is a good topic for the lobby

[Kevin E]

I went and looked at the Judge.It has a YZ block with vin # stamped by timing cover.It also has #48 heads. Didn't know where to look on the rear end or tranny for #s.I got the info faxed from PHS and the car looks legit.
Can someone tell me the correct carb and intake #s for this car.If I buy it I will be looking for the right ones.Thanks for your help.
Kevin

[judgera4]

The carb #s
400ci366/370hp manual-7029273
400ci366/370hp auto - 7029270
The Intake #s ram air 3-9794234

['ol Pinion head]

KevinE,

Search for the CarbKings comments on the '69 RAIII carbs applications. He is dead on.
Back in the mid 80's, I would have disagreed with him & bet that '69 RAIII GTO's came with original date #7029270's & #7029273's. As the late 80's & then the 90's progressed I changed my tune. Lot of investigative work took place with respect to original owner cars. Plus all the parts...have had over a dozen of the #7029270 Service date Q-jets & a few of the others. The #7029273's have always proved extremely tough to find & from recovery of orig cars were def used on the RA4 stick cars, while the 7028270 & 7028273 carbs were used on the majority of RA3 '69 GTO's.

On the intake, you definitely want to buy for the date & casting #, but be careful...condition is very important. Many of the 68 & 69 intake manifolds are cracked up from the heat riser area & in some cases create their own type EGR system to the plenum.

[This message has been edited by 'ol Pinion head (edited 02-25-2001).]

[Bermuda Blue]

This car has an edelbrock carb and intake so I doubt you will find the numbers you are looking for.

Unless the guy has the original parts in a box somewhere.

[1-GTO]

Kevin,another thing to consider is the build date on the firewall Data Tag to match with the date casting on the block,heads,intake and so on!I'm not sure how many days apart the span can be between the build date of the car and the engine components date castings.I was told the #9794234 is the same intake for the GTO's,GP's and other Full Size Pontiacs.Is this true?It should be the basic 4 bbl intake for any '68/'69 400,or 428 engine.Since the car has an aftermarket intake and carb.you may have to find a date and number matching 4 bbl intake to be correct.The rear end code is stamped on the left axel housing as your standing behind the car.It can be difficult to read depending on the surface on the housing.

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GTO.....Gran Turismo Omologato,True Pontiac Excitement!

['ol Pinion head]

Date gaps...You can't always trust the written preferred date rule. As an example, about 10 years ago had a '69 Judge out of Atlanta plant built 04A, the ORIGINAL #'s match YZ engine was built last week of October '68, with heads & intake dated early November. The block also had .010 factory cast pistons in it along with a double strike VIN. Engine was a remachine in Pontiac @ the engine plant & finally made it into the Judge 5 months later @ Doraville, GA. Have also seen cast parts off of high production engines such as 350's dated to within 4 days of the build...definitely tight build wise.

[This message has been edited by 'ol Pinion head (edited 03-02-2001).]

[Kevin E]

I bought the Judge a couple of months ago and have been doing alot of reading and research.I found an intake, carb and distributor.Engine is torn down.I have a couple of questions.In one restoration book it says the Carousel Red Judges stripe kit should be blue/y/r.All I have seen is black w/yellow/red.Which is correct.Also my tranny is a PQ which in th same book says the PQ only came with one rear 4.33:1 and RPO361 was a mandatory option.Would this explain the posi in my car without a posi on the build sheet.Thanks.

Kevin/Judged in Washington

[pontiacmark]

Kevin, in my factory service manual it refers to the PQ code transmission as being used with the Ram Air engine (later known as Ram Air IV.) If you'll read carefully in the GTO Restoration Guide, it also states that in '69 the PX code tranmssion was used for the Ram Air III motors and the PQ was used for the Ram Air IV engines. The Ram Air IV engines required 3.90 gears or the optional 4.33 gears. These gears were only available with Safe-t-track (posi). The standard rear for the Ram Air III was the 3.55 open (code WH). I don't know why you have a PQ code trans.

[Kevin E]

I went out and re-checked the tranny and it is a PQ 69 with a couple of other #s. I took the rear differential cover and the gears are 3.55 open.So I don't know if some RA111 cars got PQ s or what.
Kevin