[bdk1976]

The 6 would signify a beige vinyl top.

[Stuart]

This may not have much relevance for 1965 GTOs, but my '61 Bonneville came from the factory with special order paint (it was painted Mandalay Red and Cameo White, which were '59 factory colors.) The trim tag actually has the word 'special' stamped in the color code spot, and the PHS documents had the color names spelled out under Special Instructions.

[tigergoldpost]

for 66 "O" paint code is Tiger Gold

[Keith Seymore]

Tigergold -

Welcome and thanks for reviving this post that I had not previously seen

I don't have much to add to the great discussion of the codes themselves, but I would like to comment on the idea of using "leftover paint on an 'early' 65:

Originally Posted by Pecosbill

S was the paint code for Saddle Bronze Metallic for the 1964 Lemans/GTO. What is the production date of your car? Perhaps they used some leftover paint from 64 on the early 65's?

Originally Posted by Dantera

That would make sense as the build date is 11-64. As a matter of fact the rear-end came back with a 64 date as well. I was told not to be alarmed as the early 65's were built using the leftover 64 rear-ends.

I don't think that's plausable here, for two reasons:

1) There is a finite life for stagnant paint in the assembly plant. Today, when we do special colors the paint can only lay around for 30 days or so, then it has to be purged from the system.

2) I wouldn't consider November of 64 to be an "early" built '65. "Early" to me would be an August or September build. November is getting to be towards the middle of the model year.

MHO -

Question: I see this car was built in Kansas City. Does anyone know if Special paint cars were built at all plants, or were they "funneled" back to the home plant in Pontiac?

K

[Jerry H.]

Originally Posted by tigergoldpost

for 66 "O" paint code is Tiger Gold

With your post I'm thinking that in 66 "O" would be the code for a 'Special' Color. I have a good friend who bought a 66 brand new. It has the "O" paint code, but it is painted a 66 Cadillac green. He bought it new from a dealer in Arkansas. It is a Kansas City built car.

[John V.]

Keith, until your post, I wondered why I had missed this thread too. Didn't notice the old date.

Several "got" it back in '06.

This was nothing more than a Kansas City built GTO (not particularly early as you pointed out) that was painted the standard '65 GM code S color.

Pontiac did not include this color on their standard '65 color palette, but Buick and Chevy did. It would have been a no-brainer for the KC Plant to paint the car with the code S color (PPG 22553 regardless if you wanted to call it Chevy Sierra Tan or Buick Sahara Mist).

A Solid Color Special Paint carried an SRP arount $40 in '65, I'm guessing the Window Sticker reflected that for this car even though it was hardly as special as some requests.

I don't think Pontiac funneled special color paint orders to the Pontiac Plant. In my research, it seems any special color paint order required additional time and the reason was that the special color had to be ordered, shipped to the plant where the car was to be built, direct from PPG, Dupont, etc. The paint came in a small quantity (vs. the drums used for regular colors), a container for the Body Plant and another for the Final Plant for the front end sheetmetal. I've documented special paint cars from multiple Plants.

For this color, if anything, it would have made sense for the order to go to any Plant BUT Pontiac since there was no need for the special paint to be ordered at KC, Fremont, and Baltimore, they all would have had that color available as a standard for Chevy and/or Buick builds (depending on which Plant).

Possibly the extra cost was waived as a consequence, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I often wonder why guys ordered (and paid for) special colors especially when the colors they picked were so close to a standard color offered. But in this case, Pontiac didn't offer a standard color as brown as this. Brown is not a color that ever appeals to me, but I guess somebody must have thought it was sweet. And with a beige cordova top.

Owner never explained what he meant about the car having a '64 rear-end either. I suspect it had a '65 rear with a '64 cast date on the housing (which it should have had since it was a Nov. '64 build), but no way do I think KC was still installing '64 Rear Axle Assemblies in Nov. '64.

[Ron Landis]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Your rear has the removable 3rd member? (64)

NO A-bodies did...ever! Only big cars in '64. Just an FYI. Ron

[bigpop]

Very interesting thread. With regard to Jim Mattison thinking it may signify a dealer ordering a car in primer,I thought the number 4 in the color area of the trim tag meant this? Larry B.

[John V.]

Ron, thanks for clearing that up! I was trying to understand what johnta1 had meant by removable. I gather that is a big car thing.

Larry, I don't think you can be certain of how any special paint car would be coded on the Data Plate. Could have varied by Plant. I know Eric's book shows 4 is Body in Primer. But that may have been specific to the Pontiac Plant and I'm not sure where that info even originated. I wonder if it has ever been seen on a '65 Data Plate and corroborated by other evidence?

In my view, it matters little because I doubt many, if any, were shipped in Primer only.

Just that I wouldn't be so sure that other codes weren't used to designate special color paints and not necessarily the ones as listed in Eric's book, especially when the car was built at a satellite plant.

In this case, I think there is absolute certainty what the code S implied.

I can't speak for Mattison. Lots of guys, including many that are considered experts in the hobby, tend to guess at what odd things mean if you ask me. Thru the years I have seen many ridiculous interpretations of what SHOULD be very easy to deduce stuff if you are willing to do the research and apply logic instead of just making guesses.

Even the O.P. comment about the rear axle would trouble me. Leftover '64 rear axle assemblies in a Nov. '64 build? Not when evidence shows that the '65 center cast housing may have been already showing up in July built '64s. And not when one understands that Nov. is not an especially early build date. And not when '65 was the first year for widespread use of the 2 alpha character manifest coding that was not in use for '64 axle assemblies. And not when there was a physical difference in the bushing size in the ears on the housing between '64 & '65. Not impossible, but I'd want to know more about the axle in the car before I suggested to somebody, don't be alarmed about it. I don't like to spoil anybody's day by pointing out "wrong" stuff on a car they own. But when advising guys who are looking to buy, I try to make them aware of the truth based on facts and hard evidence, not some myth.

[gtoric]

I tend to agree with the interpretation that the "S" on this KAN tag does stand for a Chevrolet or Buick production color offering for 1965. Since the Kansas City, MO plant assembled Chevrolet full-size, Chevelles, El Caminos, and trucks, Oldsmobile Cutlass, Buick Skylark and Pontiac Lemans body styles this year, it would have been easy for the KAN Fisher plant to asign a Chevrolet or Buick color code to this Pontiac tag.

[bigpop]

There is a 66 GP on eBay now,about 44K miles.It really looks well taken care of.Anyhow,the thing that was of interest,was it was ordered with special paint,a Chevrolet Nassau Blue.I asked the guy to print the trim tag info,I am curious as to how it was coded.I do not know how to bring it up here,so a search on eBay will work,or help from a member here to bring the ad up. Larry Banks

[John V.]

Larry, insert links by copying the Address from your Browser and pasting here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1966-...=p4506.c0.m245

The code on the Data Plate should come back as FF.

Seller says it is "Corvette Marina Blue". '66 Chevy Marina Blue was a different shade than the '66 Corvette Nassau Blue.

Chevy Marina Blue was GM code F in '66, PPG Ditzler code 13148 (Nassau was PPG 13057).

In '66, the Code F color was not offered on the standard Pontiac color palette.

However, Pontiac did make this color (and other special colors) available at extra cost, some with the GM code, others only by name. This one was identified by the same F code as Chevy used, and Buick too (they called it Blue Mist) which both offered it as a standard color.

Pontiac called the code F color Cadet Blue (same PPG Ditzler code 13148 of course).

I do not know how Pontiac made these special colors available, possibly they were issued as so-called "Spring Colors" as Pontiac announced such offerings in '67 & 68.

Regardless of how or when Pontiac made them known to the Dealers and the public, this color was extra cost but not especially exotic. I have no idea how many buyers selected it in '66 and no doubt it is not a common color for a '66 Pontiac.

Since the car was built at the Pontiac Plant, I suspect PMD would have ordered this paint in for the specific build and did not keep a bulk supply on hand for it at that Plant.

[bigpop]

John, I have no idea why I typed Nassau,I had Marina Blue written down!!?? Put me to sleep!!

No Marina Blue isn't exotic,but ,on that car looks great IMHO. Also.it was oredered with a bench seat,I can't remember seeing a GP w.bench seats,buckets,yes.That also should appear on the trim tag,I assume.

I haven't heard about "Spring Colors" before,interesting.Thanks for the info and putting up the eBay address for the folks. Larry B.

[bigpop]

One last point,upon going back to the ad,I think the Marina Blue,on that car,looks alot like 67's Tyrol Blue. I had a 67 GTO convertible in Tyrol Blue,and nearly everyone who saw it loved the color,me too.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by bigpop

I haven't heard about "Spring Colors" before,interesting.Thanks for the info and putting up the eBay address for the folks. Larry B.

Larry - we still do that today.

Usually the product line will have several "mainstream" colors and then rotate a couple "special interest" colors based on any available excuse (ie, "spring colors" or "special edition" or whatever).

It varies a little by product line, but the Hummer H2 team was really big on this. There were 5 regular colors in the catalog, but the Mishawaka plant had a separate paint repair line set aside for one special color. We'd build a batch of 200 or 300 in whatever special color the Marketing folks wanted ("Inferno Orange" or "Victory Red" or "Electric Blue", etc).

K

[bigpop]

Hey Keith,thanks for the info. I just talked to the owner of this car,the dealer.Nice guy and been in the business along time.GM dealer,Cadillac,Buick,etc.

1) He sent me the trim tag picture I requested,wow!! The special order color is designated by what I call a Marijuana Bud copy!! he laughed,but,it looks like one,or a raspberry abstact!! I'll ask my wife to see if she can bring it here,it is on a fax.No alpha-numeric designation at all.
2) He knows about the primer number,cause,when he was working,helping his dad,at the dealership,a guy ordered a Cadillac in primer,and had it painted by the dealer!! His dad's paint guy then!! (he still works for him)

3) The original owner of the 66,wanted Marina Blue,but the dealer said that Pontiac had to call it a different name,and that color turned out to be Cadet Blue,w/ a plant bud for a designation. lol Sound right to you? makes sense to me. John mentions Cadet Blue above.It is confusing,the ad says one color,the newspaper article says Cadet,out of the owner's mouth,a 1996 article on he and the car.

Hope I can upload the picture of the TT. There are alot of numbers on that tag! Larry B.

[Keith Seymore]

Larry - you've touched on one more issue relative to paint colors: the noun names.

Engineers only will fess up to recognizing three or four colors in the universe (black, red, white, blue. We recognize green exists but we don't like to talk about it). Once the color has passed its durability development testing the WA number and RPO code are assigned. We usually speak in these terms.

The Studio will then come up with their own noun names (Midnight Black, Firethorn Red, Sinless White, Electric Blue, Invisible Green).

Then, each Marketing division thinks up their version, in keeping with their brand character:

Chevy: Basic Black, Bright Red, Snow White, Sky Blue, Regular Green
GMC: Professional Black, Blood Red, Cloud White, Blue Chip, Cut Grass Green
Cadillac: Tuxedo Black, Red Pepper, White Diamond, Inferno Blue, Million Dollar Green
Pontiac: NASCAR Black, Victory Red, Checkered Flag White, Petty Blue, Race Purse Green
Buick: Buick Racing Beige

Etc.

It can get pretty confusing pretty fast. That's why it's always best to go back to the WA number or the RPO paint code.

K

[Pontirag]

65's came off the line with 64 parts fo some time after the model year change over. Its not so uncommon that you would suspect the authenticity. My 65 was built at fremont in the first week of december and it had lots of 64 parts on it. Sometimes when there is a strike between model years there is a greater likelyhood that left over parts will be used to bring production back up to speed.

[1gmman]

I said what???

Jim Mattison

[Keith Seymore]

Mornin' Jim -

Originally Posted by bigpop

There is a 66 GP on eBay now,about 44K miles.It really looks well taken care of.Anyhow,the thing that was of interest,was it was ordered with special paint,a Chevrolet Nassau Blue.I asked the guy to print the trim tag info,I am curious as to how it was coded.

...He sent me the trim tag picture I requested,wow!! The special order color is designated by what I call a Marijuana Bud copy!! he laughed,but,it looks like one,or a raspberry abstact!! I'll ask my wife to see if she can bring it here,it is on a fax.No alpha-numeric designation at all... Larry Banks

Here is the trim tag for the '66 GP that Larry (bigpop) mentioned.

Has anyone seen a designation like this before?

K