['ol Pinion head]

Time to cut up this "car". No VIN equals nothing but trouble!

Going to the trouble of getting an assigned VIN & putting it on said "car" would only make it a nightmare to throw money at. Very little resale value in the future, other than what parts are on it.

[robert strohrigl]

right, i was hoping but common sense said otherwise i ran

thx bob

ALL AMERICAN PONTIAC LOVER

[johnmhiii]

This is not an easy issue. Just when is a car a specific car? What makes a specific car valuable?

From another pov......my father used to restore 1930's and 40's cars. Apparrently it was fairly common in the case of rarer bodies like a phaeton - for someone to accummulate pieces and or heavily modify pieces of more common body styles to in effect "reconstruct" from near scratch a car. It would be titled and tagged with the ID of a same style car long gone. This might be the only way someone might build a 1936 convertible sedan. In fact one of these projects - an accummulation of parts at the time - has been built into a fairly well kown street rod since his death. People knew cars and knew "originals," restorations and "rebuilds." You were admired for bringing back a car from oblivion. Cars were built to be enjoyed - as a hobby. There was not the same financial perspective that has now crept into things now.

I personally wonder about those who are paying huge amounts for supposedly rare vehicles without having absolute and unquestionable provenance. Even with full documentation, is the one and only 1968 Camaro Z/28 convertible built for some GM exec worth 2, 3, or 4 times what it would cost to build the same exact car from scratch? I don't think so, but that's my opinion. We're not talking irreplaceable rare diamonds or such. These are things that once were "made," which can and are being "made" again. I wonder how many 1932 Fords - made mostly of completely new parts - are on the road now? You can build one however you want - bone stock or wild rod.

Those willing to pay extraordinary premiums for a specific collection of parts ONLY because they were supposedly assembled at a specific time and place (in a limited quantity) should be aware that speculative bubbles focused on readily reproducible "things" can and have collapsed before. Even the rarest car is worth only what another person is prepared to pay for it.

So, In favor or resurrections - build the car you want. Enjoy it if you can bring something back from the dead and make it what you want. Why let that sound convertible shell sit when you can combine it with a grocery getter hardtop and put the drivetrain of your dreams in. Add disc brakes, a 6 speed. Update the suspension. You're building the car you want, like ordering from the dealer (my father refused to build a car without adding later model hydraulic brakes - use new and better technology). It can be functionally and cosmetically as good - or better - than comparable models having a documented history.

However, said vehicle should be acknowledged and identified as a rebuild, NOT passed as something "authentic." There should be a better way of verifying histories. I personally think that there are so many "rebuilt" and re-engined Corvettes because it is NOT easy to tell what a Corvette was originally. I wonder how many big block Corvettes are running restamped 396's from some 1960's station wagon?

Anyway, just my 2cents

[J.C.you]

restoring or piecing together an old car with major body or frame parts is the same as repairing a late model "totaled" or "salvaged" vehicle. It is done all over the U.S. every day. A "restored" old car with major parts replaced means to me as something "salvaged" nothing more, nothing less. Titles for these old cars should be branded "reconstructed" and let the guys replace what they want.

[slowgto]

Swapping VINs and data tags, and stamping VINs on blocks, are the lowest of lows in the collector car world. The only purpose would be to produce fakes to pass off on someone else.

If you put a Ferrari emblem on a Honda Civic is it now a Ferrari that you are thrilled to own?

[63Banshee]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>... and stamping VINs on blocks, are the lowest of lows in the collector car world. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Corvette guys have no problem with this.

[cat tracker]

I knew an old carpenter that said he still had the same old framing hammer he started with 40 years ago. He said he had replaced the head 4 times and the handle 6. He reminds me of the some of the people that sell all original and numbers matching Pontiacs. - Dwight

[Ron Landis]

The main reason for selling the rivet is not to perpetrate a fraud, but if you dip a body, the tags must be removed or they may be gone when she comes out of the tank. Also, didn't someone recently determine that in the eyes of the law, theframe numbers are what mattered most. I'm totally confused now.

[cat tracker]

When the law sees loose trim tags, vin numbers that have been removed, titles bought a swap meets or off ebay, special rivets, stamp sets, grinders, bondo, paint, different colored fenders, doors, bodies, and hoods, various engines and performance items, you have has just been transformed from a car nut to a chop shop. It depends on the local Police Officer, Deputy Sheriff, State Police or FBI agent that is looking at all your "stuff" as to what they do with you. What you might get away with in your home town is a different story a 100 miles away in a different State.
Remember: Their are no Pontiacs to work on behind the walls but you can still stay in the car hobby. You can stamp out license plates.

[J.C.you]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J.C.you:
restoring or piecing together an old car with major body or frame parts is the same as repairing a late model "totaled" or "salvaged" vehicle. It is done all over the U.S. every day. A "restored" old car with major parts replaced means to me as something "salvaged" nothing more, nothing less. Titles for these old cars should be branded "reconstructed" and let the guys replace what they want. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While replacing vin tags may be illegal in some states without the state police involved, what gets me is these guys that are self rightous in their attitude about this.
For instance, a guy has a basket case 70 RA IV no matching judge. Total cancer bucket. He saves the part on the car that the vin attached and the frame section with the vin no. To make a long story short he reconstructs the entire car around these two parts. Is this acceptable to u purists? Passed off as a documented original car? Nada. SALVAGED or RECONSTRUTED, YES. Title branded as such? YES.

To U self rightous ones that deplore all these vin tag replacement things, if u have a old gto or other car and u restored it and u brag it cost 30k for the restro, and no expense spared, u have nothing more than a RECONSTRUCTED, SALVAGED vehicle to me, even if u did not swap the vin.

Vin tags and stamped frames were put on cars for THEFT and OWNERSHIP PURPOSES. If someone wants to RECONSTRUCT A CAR LEGALLY around a vin no or frame stamping I see no harm, no foul. To pass it off as something other than that is WRONG.

[cat tracker]

I think you missed the point. It is called Deceptive Trade Practices. Maybe not by you but by the person that you sold it to and they resold it and then it was resold again. Somebody down the line is going to buy this piece of junk for the 'REAL DEAL" and when he finds out it isn't, "Stuff" starts rolling downhill. Then it will be backtracked by a paper trail called a "Title Search" to the person who built it. Guess what ! That turns out to be U. How are you going to prove your intent, and you didn't mean to deceive anybody, when they have 3500lbs of physical evidence sitting there in front of a Judge and Jury that U built. Over the years I have worked several of these cases. You might get off, but you won't get off without hiring a lawyer. They charge $150 to $500 per hour. Remember the person that has the deep pockets to buy a high dollar car usually has an attorney on retainerfor life.

I would't classify myself and being self-rightous, but I am trying to keep some of the fine folks in our hobby out of trouble. U can do what U want.
The jails of full of people that thought they knew more than anybody else.

[J.C.you]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J.C.you

While replacing vin tags may be illegal in some states without the state police involved, what gets me is these guys that are self rightous in their attitude about this.




Vin tags and stamped frames were put on cars for THEFT and OWNERSHIP PURPOSES. If someone wants to RECONSTRUCT A CAR LEGALLY around a vin no or frame stamping I see no harm, no foul. To pass it off as something other than that is WRONG. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dwight, don't see how i missed the point. U did not read my post. NO WHERE in my post did i condone replacing vins without the authorites involved.

U are the one that don't "get it". Bet u have a pristine car that u spent mega bucs on reconstructing it. Are u going to brand it "Salvaged"? Yeah rite, thought so. Newer cars are ruled as such in the laws in all 50 states. Anything replaced over 74% of market value of the car is considered "a salvaged vehicle". Yours or mine, legally, in all states, since we spent thousands of dollars restoring it is the same. If u want to get down to it U are breaking the law "too" by not branding ur car "salvage" on the title.

To be deceptive about replacing vins is wrong as i have already stated. Something in writing to the effect if u sell the thing would clear the seller. Good luck and happy "reconstructing".

[cat tracker]

Are you an agent for the IRS?

[J.C.you]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dwight Crawford:
Are you an agent for the IRS? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Been fudging on the ole taxes, eh?

no, ex KGB. retirement plan sucks.

[md1twal3]

Did anyone ever stop to think what we are talking about here???? METAL! It isn't like the cars have finger prints. Panel replacement is legal. What is the difference if I weld in or bolt on OEM parts from 100 donor cars, including floors, rockers, roof and quarters (which really only leaves the firewall...which was stamped from the same machine as my parts car) OR...I replace the entire body and add my vin and rivets.

So many people have said it is illegal to own rosette rivets...BS. Illegal to own RIVETS...you are kidding! Removing your vin from your car legitmate and documented car body to put them on another (again, we are talking about METAL here, people) that you have verified is not stolen or has been a part of illegal transaction....Sorry folks....this is legit and ethical. (I am not saying you shouldn't tell potential buyers, I believe you should, but it is still legit)

METAL IS METAL IS METAL IS METAL IS METAL!!!!!!

As long as your rusty junker is not stolen and your rust free body is not stolen...LEGIT!!!! PERIOD!!!!!

Prove me wrong...give me the legal statute in ANY state that indicates it is illegal to own rosette rivets or swap any and all body parts of a car, including tags, and I will eat crow!!!!!

[cat tracker]

Go to www.boss 302.com/legal.htm and you will find just a sampling of laws regarding vin tampering and removal plus changing of body parts.

Dwight - I will sort of eat crow All of those cases pretty much went as did because of the lack of proper documentation.

As long as you have proper documentation of where your parts/body came from (I.E. the VIN of the donor car)....you are still legal.

Removing VIN's from parts is only as of recent (past 15-20 years) when VIN stickers were added to all attaching panels.

In older cars, the case has been...as long as the frame number matches the VIN...and the VIN on the body is secured by rosette rivets, the car is legit....regardless of where the fenders doors, or anything else came from....correct?

[cat tracker]

You are correct about the older cars and the frame matching the vin # with the correct Rosette rivets. That was the accepted norm several years ago. But that was before the age of "High dollar fabricated clones and fakes".

If you will notice that most of the laws read "Remove OR alter or mutilate the vin # , factory serial or identification number". Not Remove AND. So by the mere process of popping a vin tag, you have committed a crime. It makes no difference what you intended to do with it afterwards. It would be a defense to your prosecution that you only removed it to paint or restore your car but it doesn't mean you would not be charged.

If I was working a fraud case I would go first to the people that sell the special rosette rivets and obtain a copy of everyone names and address that has ordered the special rivets. Then I would go and interview the customer and find out what they did with them. If they didn't have a matching pair of his and her earrings made of Rosette rivets, I suspect they would be in a lot of trouble.



How do want your Crow cooked? I personally have eaten a lot of crow in my 60 plus years and I have a special receipe. I saute mine in butter and wrap the breast with bacon strips. I then cook it over a mesquite fire. It gets rid of the gamey taste.- Dwight

[J.C.you]

Dwight, the link will not work on the boss site for me.
Have u sent off for ur salvage title yet on ur car?

[cat tracker]

Your computer probably has swamp water in it. I recommend using a hair dryer. My car is a 63 Safari with 34K original miles and all there, including the original paint, engine, interior, vin and trim tag. I don't need a salvage title. - Dwight