[Tom Vaught]

Stroker461, good luck with your current project and good luck down the road.

All the best to you.

Tom V.

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

EDITED: Say 1000 times Tom, goerge is a idiot, let it go!

Tom V.

I'm the idiot BUT you can't spell George correctly? LOL!


GTO George

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

You've totally missed my point Paul... You dont NEED a lifter bore brace EVER if running a flat tappet cam.(where did I suggest needing a lifter bore brace in that post?) A roller lobe rolls the lifter up from its side, while a flat tappet is lifted from its bottom(almost zero side load). If ramp made too steep, the lifter edge would dig into the lobe!
With a roller cam, the greater the ramp rate the greater the side lobe becomes.
A turbo motor can make big power with flat tappet and will NEVER need a lifter bore brace. One could also run a roller cam and not need a lifter bore brace if they are careful with the lobe choice. (Improved valve open/close rate can be accomplished with increased rocker ratio instead of increasing ramp rate at the lobe)


I did say little to no overlap window... shouldnt that infer different timings?

Opening/closing exhaust valve quicker allows more flow opportunity in a given time period. With reduced(or none) duration requirement after tdc, its still desireable to dump as much exhaust charge and pressure as possible before opening the intake. The pressure of piston pushing charge out on upsweep of ex cycle is small compared to pressure dumped when the exhaust valve opens long before BDC.
Nothing is going into the cylinder until exhaust pressure in the chamber becomes less than intake pressure. (That pressure balance holds true NA as well! Chamber cant purge or fill until chamber pressure becomes less than intake pressure.)
Not much point in opening intake until just before chamber pressure becomes less than intake pressure. Once you get charge flowing into cylinder a fast opening rate aids cylinder fill (Boosted or NA). Closing rates at the valve are more critical with boost. NA or boosted too fast leads to valve bounce. Boost pressure creates the need for greater seat pressure than NA.

For lifter bore life on a stock block with a roller cam, its better to make valve opening rate faster with hi ratio rocker than using ramp rate on the lobe. (BBC 1.8 with .090" offset trunnion will work if studded or go custom with shaft rockers and same or higher ratio. Its also easier to control valve train with increased rocker ratio vs increased lobe rate.)

Fwiw an 066 or 068 cams work ok with a turbo so you are correct about not needing agressive lobe profiles. More than a few turbo builds with a Summit 2802 type grind working fine despite timings better suited to a belt driven supercharger than a turbo! More important to size turbo(s) correctly especially on the turbine side.

If considering an aggresive solid flat tappet and hi ratio rockers off the shelf cams and lifters wont last long with the spring rates required. You will need cam and lifters that are made for the extra load. Discuss this with whoever is making your cam.

Bruce, I guess I must have missed your point. Thanks for clearing things up.

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Based on head flow and the cam and other parts you have listed, you should be well in the "aftermarket block preferred" zone. Your heads will support over 800 HP at your engine size. I guess you have to look at it like what if an aftermarket block wasn't available? Would you abandon this build or try it and hope for the best. Put a diaper on it, keep the RPM reasonable, 7600-8000 RPM, conservative timing, great fuel and go racing. Realize this package likely wont last indefinitely. If you plan to make this kind of power in the future, a good foundation, like an IA II, needs to be #1 on the list. Then you can go crazy, and the block will be the last thing to break.

Thank You very much!

I just don't understand Racers that will SPEND tons of MONEY to make HP then stuff it on or in a JUNK Factory Block.


GTO George

[JSPONT]

George, I did not spend a ton, but a small budget and a turbo. Stock 400 block. Mild boost right now, 650-700 h.p. I am low compaired to the other turbo guys with stock blocks that have been together for years. Marty P's street car with a 400 block will spank your race car. Some factory blocks seem to hold up. Guess the builder is what counts.

[stroker461]

Hell I didnt ask what ya understand or what ya dont, I asked what the power limit was, I don't race the car very much at all really, but ive seen you wanna criticize everyone on there post, but it doesn't bother me on your comments, if ya read I said I never intended on going as far as I have parts wise but its all good, since were going to the I dont understand stuff, I dont understand why there are faster Naturally Aspirated Pontiacs than your boosted pro mod cuz I know for a fact Dwight's car would drag your ass and its Naturally Aspirated, got answers from some people on here that are willing to help the fellow Pontiac guys rather than criticize so really dont have time for your b/s comments...... thanks Mike, mgarblik, steve, money pit, Bruce and tom, for the help........

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by stroker461

Hell I didnt ask what ya understand or what ya dont, I asked what the power limit was, I don't race the car very much at all really, but ive seen you wanna criticize everyone on there post, but it doesn't bother me on your comments, if ya read I said I never intended on going as far as I have parts wise but its all good, since were going to the I dont understand stuff, I dont understand why there are faster Naturally Aspirated Pontiacs than your boosted pro mod cuz I know for a fact Dwight's car would drag your ass and its Naturally Aspirated, got answers from some people on here that are willing to help the fellow Pontiac guys rather than criticize so really dont have time for your b/s comments...... thanks Mike, mgarblik, steve, money pit, Bruce and tom, for the help........

What I said I'm sticking with......if the FACTS hurt your feeling oh well, I'm just stating facts and TRYING to save YOU money in the long run. I race and have spent my HARD earned money on MY race car.
Remember there is ALWAYS someone Quicker!


GTO George

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

I'm the idiot BUT you can't spell George correctly? LOL!


GTO George

I should have left off the "E"s as in EGO as you don't need it GEORGE, your EGO and your mouth cause you to bad-mouth really good people who are trying to learn or people who can no longer race due to a medical condition (like 60MAN). I stand by my post, you are an IDIOT.

Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by JSPONT

George, I did not spend a ton, but a small budget and a turbo. Stock 400 block. Mild boost right now, 650-700 h.p. I am low compaired to the other turbo guys with stock blocks that have been together for years. Marty P's street car with a 400 block will spank your race car. Some factory blocks seem to hold up. Guess the builder is what counts.

Funny thing is MARTY's WIFE'S car with Mary Palbykin driving has been quicker and faster than George and she just built her deal in the last couple of years.

Tom V.

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I should have left off the "E"s as in EGO as you don't need it GEORGE, your EGO and your mouth cause you to bad-mouth really good people who are trying to learn or people who can no longer race due to a medical condition (like 60MAN). I stand by my post, you are an IDIOT.

Tom V.

I GAVE him VERY good ADVICE from SOMEONE who actually SPENDS money on a race car. Get an Aftermarket block. I've broken my STOCK factory block......messed up my Crank in the process. It cost me MORE money!!
Using a Factory block when making over 800 HP and Racing it all the time is like walking across the street with your eyes closed........you may make it BUT your chances are a lot better with your eyes open!


GTO George

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Funny thing is MARTY's WIFE'S car with Mary Palbykin driving has been quicker and faster than George and she just built her deal in the last couple of years.

Tom V.

FUNNY thing........NO ONE CARES! Go back to sitting on your Recliner, I'm BUSY racing. LOL!!


GTO George

[Brandn74]

I'm running a stock block nitrous combo also but like stroker461 I don't race every weekend and it's been together since 2011 with no issues.I keep the rpm down around 6200 with two stages of nitrous.Its a grudge car.Now the aftermarket block deal is ok but the amount of money it cost is not feasible to some at the current moment and like 461 I want to hand these Chevy boys their ass and win some money to put towards that aftermarket block,but I must say this I have seen a couple on here that have had issues with aftermarket blocks and that's a lot of money to go to the scrap bin and start over.Im not bashing just giving a little insight cause I'm in the same boat right now.

[Dragncar]

461, I have some Marine Tex and Belzona. Used them both before but not in a automotive application.
Now George, Pontiac blocks are not "junk". They are made of high grade cast iron compared to a chevy. The only GM block I know of with better iron are the Cadillac blocks. Now Buick blocks are junk. And they have the best internal dimensions bay far of the 3 455s for making power. If Pontiacs had about 5, maybe 10 more pounds of iron in the right places they would be good for about 200+ more HP.
The BBC and Ford guys at our track all have aftermarket blocks in their 800HP+ engines. It seems they go to aftermarket blocks right around 750HP just like us. I do not know for a fact how much you can push your basic BBC or BBF block to NA.
Maybe Tom V. can chime in on the power limits of the garden variety 460. Since they are the best of the big blocks I bet it is quite a bit.
I am going to build a engine a lot like 461, but pump gas. Stay around 700HP, light internals and wont rev it too high. Bet it will last a long time.
Thing is, both the IA2 and MR1 are great blocks but too expensive. If they priced them like the other brands people would buy more. We need a sportsman block good for 1200HP for 2200$. But that would kill the sales of the IA2 and MR1. There are VERY few Pontiac guys try to make more than 1200HP and making us buy a overkill block good to 3000HP is a real issue.
Now your car, take your panties off and turn up the boost. There are NA guys making just under your power with no huffer sitting on top of it. Slap that little pulley on it and get 20psi and shut people up. No reason you should not be making 1500-1600HP.

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

461, I have some Marine Tex and Belzona. Used them both before but not in a automotive application.
Now George, Pontiac blocks are not "junk". They are made of high grade cast iron compared to a chevy. The only GM block I know of with better iron are the Cadillac blocks. Now Buick blocks are junk. And they have the best internal dimensions bay far of the 3 455s for making power. If Pontiacs had about 5, maybe 10 more pounds of iron in the right places they would be good for about 200+ more HP.
The BBC and Ford guys at our track all have aftermarket blocks in their 800HP+ engines. It seems they go to aftermarket blocks right around 750HP just like us. I do not know for a fact how much you can push your basic BBC or BBF block to NA.
Maybe Tom V. can chime in on the power limits of the garden variety 460. Since they are the best of the big blocks I bet it is quite a bit.
I am going to build a engine a lot like 461, but pump gas. Stay around 700HP, light internals and wont rev it too high. Bet it will last a long time.
Thing is, both the IA2 and MR1 are great blocks but too expensive. If they priced them like the other brands people would buy more. We need a sportsman block good for 1200HP for 2200$. But that would kill the sales of the IA2 and MR1. There are VERY few Pontiac guys try to make more than 1200HP and making us buy a overkill block good to 3000HP is a real issue.
Now your car, take your panties off and turn up the boost. There are NA guys making just under your power with no huffer sitting on top of it. Slap that little pulley on it and get 20psi and shut people up. No reason you should not be making 1500-1600HP.

I agree on what you are saying.........the problem is pontiac block doesn't have the added material.........hence the Aftermarket Block. As for me calling the block junk......hell I call my car a junk!
Upgrading to a aftermarket block after adding power adders is a SAFTEY thing........just like SAFTEY belts, trans shield, helmets.....etc. SAFTEY is FIRST, how much is your life worth........just ask your Kids, Wife or Girlfriend. Running over your own oil is UN-COOL.
Yea there are some faster NA CARS out there it I bet they don't weigh 3,200 lbs. my lifters, rockers and springs lasted 7 years........your turn!
Get the point.


GTO George

[Tom Vaught]

George does not have the supercharger to make 1600 HP. If he was making anywhere near 1600 he would be close to 6s. Palbykin was probably in the 1400 HP range when he went 7.40 at Norwalk the first year (at 3000 #s - Double Tube chassis and steel parts are not light).

Ford guys get nervous, just like other brands, and figure around 800 hp they have enough money tired up in parts that they swap over to the readily available Ford Motorsports parts. Pontiac does not have a motorsports group, just like GM does not have Pontiac engines any longer. So you pay Bob and Frank when you move to the next level (and be glad the block is there).

I agree safety is a big deal. Wish more would pay attention to it. (Like unpacking their parachute every week-end of racing and repacking it vs not having the chute even come out of the bag.) Embarassing! really.

Tom V.

[mgarblik]

This has probably been mentioned before, but I will re-state. The actual cost of producing a Pontiac"sportsman" block vs the IA II as it is now is very small, Say they take 25 lbs of iron out of the IA II, make a weaker block that is maxed out at say 1200 HP, that could be done. But it would likely cost within $200.00-300.00 of the current IA II which is much stronger. We are trapped somewhat by what we want and need. We need all the design features of the IA II when exceeding 750-800 HP level. Yes they could make the block lighter but what does 25 pounds of cast iron cost? Look at the scrap value of it, not much. The only real area I see some potential savings may be making the IA II with cast nodular iron main caps. That might save a few hundred bucks. The unfortunate fact is if you want to make 800 HP reliably for a long time, it's going to cost more than a Chevy or Ford for the block. It's the price you will have to pay to have a much cooler and unique power plant. Pay a little more or go belly button with the Chevy and Ford folks. At the flying mile a week or so ago, a car with a Caddillac 500 ran right at 200 MPH with a mid 70's Sedan Deville . If it would have had BBC power, it would have been completely ignored. It's fun and challenging to be a clear underdog and get the job done. Why the hell would most of us keep doing this?

[Tom Vaught]

That must have been a ride, 200 MPH in a Cadillac Sedan Deville.

Tom V.

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

This has probably been mentioned before, but I will re-state. The actual cost of producing a Pontiac"sportsman" block vs the IA II as it is now is very small, Say they take 25 lbs of iron out of the IA II, make a weaker block that is maxed out at say 1200 HP, that could be done. But it would likely cost within $200.00-300.00 of the current IA II which is much stronger. We are trapped somewhat by what we want and need. We need all the design features of the IA II when exceeding 750-800 HP level. Yes they could make the block lighter but what does 25 pounds of cast iron cost? Look at the scrap value of it, not much. The only real area I see some potential savings may be making the IA II with cast nodular iron main caps. That might save a few hundred bucks. The unfortunate fact is if you want to make 800 HP reliably for a long time, it's going to cost more than a Chevy or Ford for the block. It's the price you will have to pay to have a much cooler and unique power plant. Pay a little more or go belly button with the Chevy and Ford folks. At the flying mile a week or so ago, a car with a Caddillac 500 ran right at 200 MPH with a mid 70's Sedan Deville . If it would have had BBC power, it would have been completely ignored. It's fun and challenging to be a clear underdog and get the job done. Why the hell would most of us keep doing this?

Good post!


GTO George

[Dragncar]

Tom, is there a difference between a Pontiac making 1600 HP and say a Ford making that power with a 8-71. We had this car come out to Samoa Drag Strip and set the record at the time. Freaking awesome car. It was a mid 2000s Mustang and he raced in a class/series where you could only run a 6-71(maybe it was a 8-71 but I doubt it) to keep costs down. Now this guy was a bad @ss. Owned a logging company out of Ford Bragg CA. and spent his considerable money on his race cars. One of those guys who does it all himself, works sun up to sundown, in his early 60s and ripped. He has one of those big rig trailers where the race car gets lifted up and under it is the work area.
Anyway I asked him wow much power he made and he told me 1600HP as did the track announcer. You had to cover your ears when it ran and he did go 228MPH and run a mid 6 ET.
The engine was a BBF with custom Herbert billet hemi heads. He had the only 2 sets of the heads made.
Nicest car I have ever personally seen. I took some pics of it and the engine. I will see if I can find them.
Sad thing the worst wreck I have ever seen was that car getting destroyed. He crossed the line at 200+ and his cute did not open. He braked as hard as he could and that thing made "hops" of well over 100ft between them and crashed straight into the end of a K rail at the opening of the first return road. The sound was sickening and I saw the engine go 30-40ft straight up in the air. He lived but broke both ankles.
There are now large water barrels in the spot he hit.
He went on to race again but not up here. That guy is as tough as they come. I have a autographed photo of his car. Only Ford pic in my garage.

[Tom Vaught]

If he could run 228 mph with a mustang he was making well over 1600 HP.

I used Wallace's Calculator: Mustang 2200 pounds 228 mph 6.50 ET.

When was the last time you say a 2200 pound Mustang?

Your HP computed from your vehicle ET is 1,424.99 rear wheel HP and 1,583.33 flywheel HP.

So that is the match for the reported HP but the car had to weigh 2200 pounds to get it.

Your HP computed from your vehicle MPH is 1,879.34 rear wheel HP and 2,088.16 flywheel HP.

That says that the Mustang had to make over 2000 engine HP to run 228 mph.
No Ford with a 6-71 0r a 8-71 supercharger can make 2000 HP unless it was on Nitro.

Tom V.

ps the ET and MPH do not line up at all.