[unruhjonny]

Rather than continue a tangent on an earlier thread HERE I am starting a new one.

I brought my favorite (of my two) MPC to work, and looked up lock numbers;
I found the only number listed for an ignition lock was 3981938.

I looked around and wasn't even seeing any legit closed/sold auctions for this part number with the correct key.

Another eBay member had told me that for a long time GM was making all replacement ignition locks using "E" key blanks - which may explain why the one listing which had that part number was for use with an "E" key.

Background:

I have intended for a long time to replace all my locks, and while I have down time, I am taking care of smaller tasks - one being my ignition lock/column replacement.
My ignition lock would seem to jam, and be sticky for a while;
I do recall looking at my column, and finding nothing discernably wrong, so I chalked it up to the lock being worn out... even so, when another standard black column came up at the right price I bought it;
it has been hanging in my basement awaiting a new lock for at least three months now.

Today after not finding any sort of lead on a NOS replacement ignition lock, I got to thinking about rebuilding a lock...

After I got home, I pulled my column, steering wheel, and removed my lock.

I am pretty sure it's goobered - this time around I noticed what must be mangled lock pin springs falling out of it...

I am pretty sure it's my car's original lock, I see what I believe is an alpha-numeric key code on it (which is why I pulled it).

I also rummaged through my key collection, and the few ignition locks that I have;
I have the following second gen Firebird/Camaro locks:
1x J (yay!)
1x A
1x C
And I have one which appears to not be a Firebird lock (has red in keyway spot, if that makes sense) - it doesn't have provisions for an accessory position.

QUESTIONS:

1) Is there a resource someone can point me to, which can instruct me on how I might disassemble one of these, so that I can rey-key it?
(or maybe this is spelt out in a factory service manual?)

2) assuming that each key type has it's own specific tumbler, do the housings interchange - or are they specific to each key type?

3) are there any ways to determine if either a tumbler or housing shouldn't be used for rebuilding?

4) what's the best way to aquire a good assortment of replacement pins and/or springs?

The attached picture has:
my original lock, top left;
another "J" lock below that;
an "A" lock top right;
a "C" lock below that;
another non-accessory "E" lock in the foreground.

PS:
My glove box lock need sto be replaced - the chrome cap is currently (iirc) glued in place after falling off several times.
(I did take that one apart a while ago thanks to another thread with leads! - it too has what appears to be a key code on it - so I have both key codes now!!)

[Formulabruce]

Your PHS has the lock digit codes on it.
I would HIGHLY recommend Paul Spotts , I believe Ames carries his exceptional Original Locks, however he is in PA, and I am Betting a call
to Performance years would yield success.

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

Your PHS has the lock digit codes on it.
...

my PHS only gave me a customs declaration form - no lock codes

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

...
I would HIGHLY recommend Paul Spotts , I believe Ames carries his exceptional Original Locks, however he is in PA, and I am Betting a call
to Performance years would yield success.

If there are good replacement locks I will definitely humor it;
I thought Performance Years as the company I knew was dissolved when Ames bought them?
Is there any indication if Pauls locks are the ones which Ames carries?
I was contemplating on buying the more expensicve ignition/door & trunk/glove box sets which are year correct - but (and this isn't a huge deal) it would be kinda nice to retain the original key code.
I am pretty sure buying those two sets @ $120usd will be cheaper than buying locks at the local dealership...

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

Your PHS has the lock digit codes on it. ...

To build upon my last comment, this is my PHS sheet.

[Held for Ransom]

They write about the locks in the 1970 Pontiac Service Manual, first section (0).
PY still sells lock sets. http://www.maxperformanceinc.com/locks.html

[unruhjonny]

/\ THANKS!

[unruhjonny]

I am currently looking at my service manual;
It clearly says that production locks are not servicable.

I am unsure if that means that they were made in such a way that they were not intended to be disassembled, rekeyed and reassembled...

Are the repops available through PY/Ames able to be rekeyed?
(I appologize for any incorrect terminology)

[Formulabruce]

Lets establish a couple things.
1. in 1970 the Door key and the Ignition key were the same Key and code.
2. You said you do Not have the "codes" in your paperwork
3. You can take off a door panel, and remove a door lock, and the code is probably stamped into it.
4. You will need a "Code book" to be able to adjust the Key punch machine to make a key, or lock "Chit" with that code.
5. The key punch machine is hand held and No GM dealers have them anymore, but some folks do.
6. This brings me back to Paul Spotts at Perfomance years.... Get your codes and just call him and order your locks...
Do you really want to buy the equipment and learn all this for a one time usage?
I did this stuff when I worked at the Pontiac/GMC dealership in the 70's. Once you have a Pile of used "brass chits" laying around, some you can do without the machine, but most all do wear..
ALL "Original" keys were "Stamped", just like the "Chits" were also Stamped. Copies of worn keys will wear out the locks. First place we noticed it was the Ignition not going in ACCY mode ( CC turn)
Good luck

[unruhjonny]

I will put my replies in your quote; in bolded blue.

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

Lets establish a couple things.
1. in 1970 the Door key and the Ignition key were the same Key and code.
Yes.... more on the door locks in a bit.
2. You said you do Not have the "codes" in your paperwork
That is correct. I have though pulled my factory ignition tumbler and glove box lock, which both have a four digit alpha-numeric code on them - I am guessing these are my key codes.
3. You can take off a door panel, and remove a door lock, and the code is probably stamped into it.
I actually replaced my door locks in I believe 1997 (I can dig up the receipt from the Winnipeg dealership where i bought them) with 1974(?) locks - they use the same key which I use for my trunk and glove box. At the time I didn't know that pre-1974 cars used the ignition key for the door locks.
4. You will need a "Code book" to be able to adjust the Key punch machine to make a key, or lock "Chit" with that code.
Ok, this is a little bit jibberish to me, but I will look into this.
5. The key punch machine is hand held and No GM dealers have them anymore, but some folks do.
ok, I will look into this.
6. This brings me back to Paul Spotts at Perfomance years.... Get your codes and just call him and order your locks...
Do you really want to buy the equipment and learn all this for a one time usage?
I did this stuff when I worked at the Pontiac/GMC dealership in the 70's. Once you have a Pile of used "brass chits" laying around, some you can do without the machine, but most all do wear..
ALL "Original" keys were "Stamped", just like the "Chits" were also Stamped. Copies of worn keys will wear out the locks. First place we noticed it was the Ignition not going in ACCY mode ( CC turn)
Good luck

about your last point;
I was not reading that locks could be ordered with a specific key code - this is a new tidbit of information!
I looked at the previously supplied PY link, and it read very similar to the "premium" locks offered by Ames (my guess is that they are the PY locks).

Thanks for taking the time to spell this all out.

[Formulabruce]

The Premium locks that Ames sells are the Paul Spotts locks. ( PY) When Ames and PY merged, Paul stayed put in Pa at his shop.
I am 90% sure he can get you what you want .

[unruhjonny]

well, if this is the case, that puts an end to my "chase"...

I actually disassembled a ignition tumbler yesterday;
When I was deciding which one to pull apart, I noticed the housing was a little broken...
After that one, I took a second one to pulling the tumbler housing from the outer housing - and put it back together!
My original is definately packed - but maybe I can repair it for time being... ??

When my CC gets once again paid off, I'll contact Paul about locks.

Thanks again!

[unruhjonny]

I'm giving this thread a near six month bump.

I emailed Paul, and never heard back from him.

1) Is this the only place I can go to get top quality replacement locks?
2) Does anyone know if I can order locks in my desired codes?

[unruhjonny]

I'm going to bump this thread.

I let this slide for a while, and I have come back around to looking into this.

When I contacted Paul a couple years ago, he informed me that the codes I gave him were not right, and suggested I save some money, and buy a premade set from Ames.

Well, what he wasn't clear on was that the ignition tumbler code I gave him indicated that it was a replacement - which would explain why I thought my door locks were seized in 1996(!) - Niether of the keys given to me when we got the car matched the doors!
GM of Canada has key codes on microfilm, and I got my car's original key codes;
My suspicion that my trunk and glovebox were original was confirmed.

I now have my car's original key codes in hand.

I REALLY like the idea of being able to go to any GM dealer to replace lost keys, so I am once again wanting to get original code locks/keys for my car.

I emailed Paul last week Friday;
I haven't heard back from Paul.
I would like to think I'm patient, but I would also think that if my email was recieved, that within the better part of a week I might get a reply of some sort.

Is it possible that I sent an email to an outdated address?

[johnta1]

Paul's website:

Spott's Performance

May be outdated, but phone may work.

[John V.]

Don't know if this will help you but when I restored my '64 GTO, the original Ignition Switch had been replaced with an incorrect style switch. Years earlier, I grabbed an original '64 switch out of a parts car.

I also had my original key codes from the PHS record, but discovered that although my door lock was stamped with the code printed on the PHS, it was not keyed for that Code according to the book (old key code book), I was able to determine the code that matched the keying (again, from the old key code book). Since I had original keys and since the door lock cylinder was stamped with the Code shown on the PHS docs, I surmised that Briggs & Stratton had produced the original locksets for my car with one code and inadvertently stamped the wrong code on the cylinder. At Assembly, the Fremont PLant would have had no reason to expect the Code on the lockset package was wrong, they simply installed the locksets and recorded the Code on the Package. And that was the code that was printed on the Shipping Manifest (as obtained from PHS).

I chose to have the replacement Ignition Switch keyed to match the "wrong" original keying rather than the code actually stamped on the door lock cylinder (and the PHS). I could have rekeyed the door locks and nobody would have known the story but I chose to keep the mistake as part of the history of the car.

Anyway, I worked with Dedge's Lock & Key Shop in Jacksonville, Fla. I originally gave them the code from the PHS and also the keying that I had translated from the original key.

They keyed the Ignition Switch but informed me it did not match to the Code I had given them. That prompted me to investigate the door lock cylinder whereupon I discovered that while yes, the stamped Code matched the PHS, the original key was not cut to that Code.

They actually kinda ignored the info I had given them concerning the key cuts from the original key (translated using the Shop Manual) so their first attempt to key the Switch resulted in a key that came close but didn't really match the keying of the door locks.

Once I confirmed what was stamped on the door lock cylinder and also rechecked and confirmed the actual key cuts on the original key, I had them rekey the Ignition Switch to the key rather than the code.

And when completed, they gave me the actual Code that my original door locks were keyed to,

Long story, but my point, the guy at Dedge's who did the work knew his stuff and had all the parts needed to rekey the '64 Ignition Switch.

My circumstance was surely very unusual, if the door lock had actually been keyed originally to the Code stamped on it, the process of rekeying the replacement Ignition Switch would have been pretty simple.

I think he charged me about $30 and he included a new key which he had an original GM key blank. although it was the last one he had in stock, so another one he cut for me was generic.

I assume he could rekey a later model Ignition Switch just as easily.

At the time, I was told by some that this could be a D-I-Y project. I did attempt it with a junk switch. I forget what all the issues were (I think the springs were the hard part) but I had to give up. When I found Dedge's, I was happy that I didn't butcher the replacement I had. They had all the parts and tools to do the job right and the price was very reasonable.

They are an old time locksmith and stay incredibly busy with general locksmith work (rekeying old Ignition Switches is a nuisance biz). Turn around was at least a week IIRC. And if the guy who did mine has retired, I'm guessing they would decline the work, I think he was the only guy in that busy shop who knew how to do it.

I had the advantage of talking to the guy at the counter but I figure you could ship the switch to them and pay return UPS or FedEx to get it back.

Worth a phone call. Pretty sure the guy you want to talk to is Bob Bernhardt. Just tell them you need a GM Ignition Switch rekeyed, they'll pass you to the right guy if not Bob.

904-387-2656. 4579 Lenox Ave., Jacksonville, FL 32205

Obviously, you might also try finding a local old time locksmith to see if a local guy can help you. But I would recommend Dedge's if you strike out locally.

[unruhjonny]

/\ Thanks for the idea.
I am chasing this from another anglw while I wait to see if I might hear back from Paul.
If what I am trying doesn't pan out, I'll probably do something along these lines.

[unruhjonny]

I am giving this thread a bump because Paul never did get back to me, and I remained focused on wanting to figure out how to remove the tumbler from a good "J" ignition lock, to get it recoded;
I have done door locks in the past, and the trunk lock appears to essentially be the same as a door lock. The glove box door lock also seems simple enough to do myself.

I finally figured out how to disassemble a 1970+ ignition lock (they slightly differ from the 1969 ignition locks).

HERE is a link that says how the 1969 locks come apart, and after finding this link, I was able to figure out the 1970+ locks.

The million dollar secret is that you have to gently remove the tabbed ring on the end of the lock assembly;
Then follow the instructions about which brass tab needs to be pressed in, then you can pop out the tumbler.

I just successfully took apart a really tight "B" ignition lock, then my spare "J" ignition lock - yay for me!

It looks like the housings are all the same, but the tumbler is specific to match the key grooves.

I am sharing this now in part to help anyone else trying to figure this out, and in part to have a record of this for myself.