[RAIIIJudge]

Hello Friends,

I'm encouraged to come forth here by reading sub-forum byline "No Question Too Basic!" so please be patient with me.

I'm getting back to a very long-time-stalled restoration of a 69' RAIII Judge that I've had since 82'. Car needs quite a bit still and I'm coming at it from all angles. Here I'd like to address my game plan regarding motor which was rebuilt in 96' and can't have more than 2 to 5 hours of run time. Besides the typical Assembly Manuals and the Pontiac Performance 55 - 79' book, I've been pouring over posts here and on the GTO Forum.

Car is 2.5 hours from me and I've been getting up there a couple times per month to chip away at it.

Overall I know motor was rebuilt but except for receipts and memories of conversations w/ my late father about plans for the build, I don't know exactly a) what was done while heads and block were machined and b) exactly what components are in engine.

Engine is a .030 over, 69' WS RAIII w/ #48 heads, stock Qjet and manifold(s) w/ an M20 and a Chevy 12 bolt w/ 3.73s. Car has drum brakes and power steering. No AC.

My father and the machinist were good friends therefore there's no receipts describing machine work. I do distinctly remember block was bored .030 over but don't know if heads received three angle valve job or if block was decked. Assembly was balanced and I've enclosed a pic of weight specs from shop that did the work. I don't know what they mean honestly but maybe they offer clues?

- It seems from receipts and greasy fingerprinted cam card that cam is a Lunati 1073 RAIV copy. Springs are Lunati 73949. 120lbs valves closed / 319lbs. open. "Rate" 363lbs. Coil bind .950". Pushrods are stock dimension i.e..5/16" x 9.13" (not 11/32" x 9.23" RAIV push rods). Valve locks are 10deg Lunati 77103. Lifters are Lunati 71951G which are some kind of racing hydraulic? (Ive enclosed a screen grab of Lunati's description of these, below). If memory serves rockers are 1.65 rollers (#48 heads had screw in studs).

- I'm sure pistons are forged, I doubt rods are but don't know about rod bolts. If I had to bet and I realize this isn't good enough .. but in 96' we were definitely not talking about building a low compression engine so I'm fairly certain pistons would be 10.5 - 11.5 CR.

I'd like to see build through w/ the 041 but wonder if I should pull heads and make sure they're set up properly for an 041, push rods and 1.65 rockers. There doesn't seem to be enough certainty as it stands.

- Is 120/319lbs enough spring pressure? What about bind?
- I don't know what to think about these Lunati 71951G lifters (except that they are loud)
- W/ M20 and 3.73s (and no AC/PBs) will I need Rhodes?
- With heads off would a visual inspection of piston tops clue me in to CR and/or deck height? What about taking compression readings in each cylinder?

I'd love to build a low 12 / high 11 sec. street-able car. Am I off base thinking that I might be able to pull this off w/ above ingredients (i.e. CR, M20, 3.73s) and a 041?
I confess I'm confused by what I'm reading regarding running an 041 cam car w/ high CR on 94 octane.

I'm going to get out of here before I write in any more circles. Hopefully I've included enough information to get a conversation started.

Thank you for reading and for your consideration,
Mike

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b6e1iknnjz..._7083.MOV?dl=0

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by RAIIIJudge

Hello Friends,

I'm encouraged to come forth here by reading sub-forum byline "No Question Too Basic!" so please be patient with me.

I'm getting back to a very long-time-stalled restoration of a 69' RAIII Judge that I've had since 82'. Car needs quite a bit still and I'm coming at it from all angles. Here I'd like to address my game plan regarding motor which was rebuilt in 96' and can't have more than 2 to 5 hours of run time. Besides the typical Assembly Manuals and the Pontiac Performance 55 - 79' book, I've been pouring over posts here and on the GTO Forum.

Car is 2.5 hours from me and I've been getting up there a couple times per month to chip away at it.

Overall I know motor was rebuilt but except for receipts and memories of conversations w/ my late father about plans for the build, I don't know exactly a) what was done while heads and block were machined and b) exactly what components are in engine.

Engine is a .030 over, 69' WS RAIII w/ #48 heads, stock Qjet and manifold(s) w/ an M20 and a Chevy 12 bolt w/ 3.73s. Car has drum brakes and power steering. No AC.

My father and the machinist were good friends therefore there's no receipts describing machine work. I do distinctly remember block was bored .030 over but don't know if heads received three angle valve job or if block was decked. Assembly was balanced and I've enclosed a pic of weight specs from shop that did the work. I don't know what they mean honestly but maybe they offer clues?

- It seems from receipts and greasy fingerprinted cam card that cam is a Lunati 1073 RAIV copy. Springs are Lunati 73949. 120lbs valves closed / 319lbs. open. "Rate" 363lbs. Coil bind .950". Pushrods are stock dimension i.e..5/16" x 9.13" (not 11/32" x 9.23" RAIV push rods). Valve locks are 10deg Lunati 77103. Lifters are Lunati 71951G which are some kind of racing hydraulic? (Ive enclosed a screen grab of Lunati's description of these, below). If memory serves rockers are 1.65 rollers (#48 heads had screw in studs).

- I'm sure pistons are forged, I doubt rods are but don't know about rod bolts. If I had to bet and I realize this isn't good enough .. but in 96' we were definitely not talking about building a low compression engine so I'm fairly certain pistons would be 10.5 - 11.5 CR.

I'd like to see build through w/ the 041 but wonder if I should pull heads and make sure they're set up properly for an 041, push rods and 1.65 rockers. There doesn't seem to be enough certainty as it stands.

- Is 120/319lbs enough spring pressure?
- I don't know what to think about these Lunati 71951G lifters (except that they are loud)
- W/ M20 and 3.73s (and no AC/PBs) will I need Rhodes?
- With heads off would a visual inspection of piston tops clue me in to CR and/or deck height? What about taking compression readings in each cylinder?

I'd love to build a low 12 / high 11 sec. street-able car. Am I off base thinking that I might be able to pull this off w/ above ingredients (i.e. CR, M20, 3.73s) and a 041?
I confess I'm confused by what I'm reading regarding running an 041 cam car w/ high CR on 94 octane.

I'm going to get out of here before I write in any more circles. Hopefully I've included enough information to get a conversation started.

Thank you for reading and for your consideration,
Mike

What is the state of the engine? Will it run?

Doing a leak down and cranking compression tests will help.

Stan

[RAIIIJudge]

Hi Stan,
I forgot to include a little clip of engine running.
It's there now.
Thanks,
M

[SRR]

Sounds awesome to me, leave it alone and get that baby back on the road!

[steve25]

Can I ask where the car is from and if the heads had any work done to them other then a normal rebuild?

I ask because in the time frame you speak of I ported and did valve jobs on a lot of number 48 castings.

If you do a cranking compression test and post up the results that would be good due to the fact as that would shed light on the question as to weather your heads are the 66 CC version as most 4 speed cars where, or if they are the 72 CC version

[Formulas]

In a way it's hard to do a valve job that isnt a 3 angle by the time you fresh cut the seat angle it's to wide then you bring it into spec / location by top and bottom angle from my experience

In your case I would pop off a valve cover look to verify rocker ratio and look at the top of pushrod holes in the head to see if they are clearances between pushrod and head.
Cheap and easy to do and is about the easiest to get wrong in a Pontiac build by a Possible unfamiliar builder

Rhoads lifters will not be your friend with higher compression

Possible cast rods wouldn't hurt to use a rev limiter especially with a stick

Nice car enjoy it

[RAIIIJudge]

Thanks for the thoughts Fellas I really appreciate it ..

Steve, car is up in NH and I don't know what head work was done to it. I assume at minimum whatever's considered "typical"? Lame answer I know, sorry.

Formulas, I'll see car end of the month and having a look under valve covers is on the list for sure. If i'm understanding correctly, w/ stock pushrods even w/ an 041, there's no clearance issues coming through heads. I'd like to put proper RAIV pushrods in and there .. some material needs to be removed from heads and guides need to be opened a little to accept new width. And I hear you re- rev limiter.

As per OP I'm wondering about adequate spring pressure, spring binding, (if they're in fact even in the car) the 10 degree valve locks (are they a clue about valves?), lifters and if I should just cut to the chase, yank heads and have someone that understands what a 041 requires, set up heads for that cam so there aren't any Qs?

Finally, I'm wondering if the overall synergy could be There in the large picture?

Sorry to be so redundant!

I will most definitely be doing compression test also.

Onward and Upward,
Mike

[Formulas]

It's not the cam it's the rocker ratio. stock #48's = 1.5 you said 1.65

1.65 is not what those heads came from factory with it kicks the pushrod towards the stud and the pushrod hole needs clearance, the top is the worse area and is also easiest to see

Easy situation to overcome just put 1.5 on it if pushrods are rubbing until heads are removed next time

I have NEVER had a 1.65 NOT rub on a standard d"port in fact the first 2 heads I attempted to clearance still rubbed a inch or so down 11/31 pushrods will exacerbate this issue

[RAIIIJudge]

Originally Posted by Formulas

It's not the cam it's the rocker ratio. stock #48's = 1.5 you said 1.65

1.65 is not what those heads came from factory with it kicks the pushrod towards the stud and the pushrod hole needs clearance, the top is the worse area and is also easiest to see

Easy situation to overcome just put 1.5 on it if pushrods are rubbing until heads are removed next time

I have NEVER had a 1.65 NOT rub on a standard d"port in fact the first 2 heads I attempted to clearance still rubbed a inch or so down 11/31 pushrods will exacerbate this issue

I'm with you, Formulas .. I thought <stock> pushrods w/ 1.65s and the 041 would NOT rub. Now I'm especially curious 'cause I understand the car has 1.65 rollers and stock dimension push rods. If in theory I want a build that's making power up to 5500 rpm .. I've read stock PRs are not up to the task w/ an 041.
Hence the have heads machined to work w/ RAIV PRs idea.

BTW, the getting reacquainted/discovery process after allllll these years has been a blast. I had a LOT of fun w/ this car back in the day and have great memories of tearing it UP in my area. I grew up on Lawn Guy Land and we'd cruise Deer Park Ave, race way way late at night .. sometimes further in towards the city too. Times have certainly changed ... and that's ok ; )

Thanks for the help,
Mike

[steve25]

The stock D port valve spring installed height of 1.560 to 1.580" will not handle the .469" valve lift of the 041 Cam even with just the 1.5 rockers for very long if at all with out aftermarket springs and cutting the guide tops for positive seals to have the needed .030" clearance between the bottom of the stock retainer and the top of the seal.

[Jay S]

Your balancing numbers sure appear like they are L2262F Speedpro (TRW) pistons with the lighter 195 g wrist pins on stock factory rods.

The Lunati valve spring are ok as long as they were set up at the correct installed height. Usually 1.62-1.65”.

Two things too double check when you pull a valve cover off. Intake pushrod for clearance and measure installed height.

For swapping push rods like was mentioned, the Ram Air 4 11/32” push rod is longer than a standard d ports. How well the RA4 pushrods work on a D port depends on what rocker arms, valves length, and machine heights of the surfaces. Until you get into the engine some it is hard to say what length you would need if you want to upgrade.

[RAIIIJudge]

Steve,
The very well handled and soiled cam card clearly states "Recommended Installed Height 1.750" @ 125lbs" . Am I safe ass-uming most pro machinists would have read this and done necessary work on heads? Obviously I'm not going to just trust they did I'm just asking ; ) When I have valve covers off can I measure spring height accurately? What else can I observe and/or measure while I'm in there to better understand situation?

Hi Jay,
What are the implications of "lighter wrist pins?"

This is the **** fellas, thanks!
Mike

[Jay S]

Pontiac used a 250 gram pin also. What you have is better.

I need to look up the Lunati springs again. I thought they were rated for a 1.65” installed height. I am guessing the machinist did it correctly, doesn’t hurt to double check. Measure the height of the spring with the valve closed, that is the installed ht.

[RAIIIJudge]

You know what Jay?

I'm getting the 125lbs @ 1.75" via side of cam card that <suggests> Lunati 73125 springs.

When I look up specs on their 73949 springs, which is what I think is on car, I read 120lbs @ 1.65"

Mike

[Jay S]

Cam card recommended spring was for a RA4 round port instead of a D port.

[grandam1979]

Sounds like the builder might have put the longer valves in already I would double check the pushrod holes for clearance with the 1.65 rockers.

[steve25]

To run those springs with a stock lenght D port valve the spring seats would have had to have been machined, does your shop receipt say such?

[RAIIIJudge]

grandam1979,
Longer valves would be nice .. What gives you that idea?

steve,
Except for sheet on assembly balancing I have zero receipts related to machine work. I have receipts from Lunati.

- Do 10 degree valve locks provide any clues?
- At bottom of my OP I included a link to car running ... damn those lifters are loud, is this typical w/ these?Or could they be out of adjustment?

As I wrote, I'll be up there end of the month and will return w/ measurements and pics.

Thanks fellas,
M

[ta man]

I'd run the engine the way it is especially on a build that has been this long in the making. Trust what your Dad and the machinist did. Finish up the rest of the car and enjoy.

[RAIIIJudge]

Originally Posted by ta man

I'd run the engine the way it is especially on a build that has been this long in the making. Trust what your Dad and the machinist did. Finish up the rest of the car and enjoy.

Thanks for this ... Really, that's what I want to do. I'd like to keep cam in there I just want to be sure there isn't going be any issues with valve train when motor's wound up and I also want to do what I can to head off any "conflicts of interest" in terms of synergy of car as a whole.

... and believe me vast majority of hours into the car since I've been back at it has been spent on everything else but the motor ; )

Mike