[ponjohn]

What was the oiling issue?

[Tom Vaught]

Are some using that tight lash (from lifter bottomed) setting on their Rhoads lifters?

Tom V.

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by gtobob67

lifter bottomed out..

That is noted in a few very old books of David Vizard.

Page 82 from this Vizard book dated 1992.
https://www.amazon.com/Chevrolet-Sma.../dp/0879385952

Page 102 of this 2009 book.
https://www.amazon.com/Vizards-Max-P.../dp/1932494847

I own both.

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Are some using that tight lash (from lifter bottomed) setting on their Rhoads lifters?

Tom V.

Recommended by Rhoads for their V-Max
https://www.rhoadslifters.com/Pages/Installation.html

V-Max STEP 2

Make sure the lifter being adjusted is on the low side (base circle) of the cam when adjusting, just like you would when adjusting any solid lifter cam. In this position, the valve would be in the fully closed position. For street use place a .020” feeler gauge, (use .030" for racing), or for aluminum blocks use a .010" feeler gauge (or .020" for racing) between the valve stem and rocker arm as if adjusting solid lifters, and tighten the lock nut until the lifter plunger bottoms out in the lifter shell and the valve begins to open. Now back off on the lock nut until the valve just closes and the pressure of the valve spring just begins to release on the feeler gauge. When you can just slide the feeler gauge back and forth with slight drag from the spring, the adjustment is correct. Repeat this process until all lifters are adjusted. After the adjustment, the plunger position should be nearly all the way down to the bottom of the lifter shell, and not up against the retaining ring, with no clearance in the valve train whatsoever. Please remember to adjust the lifter when the valve is in the closed position, or the adjustment will be wrong. For absolute accuracy, the adjustment can be repeated when the engine is at normal operating temperatures, but the adjustment should be made with a .020" feeler gauge (.030" for race) for both cast iron and aluminum heads when the engine is hot. Also, never adjust the lifters at zero lash or looser so that the plunger is up against the retaining clip as standard anti-pump up lifters are adjusted. This will cause valve train damage.

[slowbird]

So is it possible to do the bottom lifter adjustment after the lifters have been run and pumped up using the more traditional adjustment method? Just thinkibg it'll be hard tobget the lifter bottomed out after it's been pumped up.

[gtobob67]

It takes a while after pump up. I did them 2 at a time at TDC compression stroke. Run the nut down 1/8 to 1/4 turn, wait a few minutes, repeat. Mine were a bit over 2 1/4 turns to bottom out. When the oil is out you can easily run them down and gently seat them.

[Cliff R]

I guess current information based on actually tight-lashing hydraulic lifters isn't good enough so we have to read old information based on theory vs actually doing it. Sorry folks but I guess my Google skills aren't adequate these days and I've never to date read a single blurb of information from David Vizard.

I've actually been doing this dating clear back into the 1980's as I built quite a few circle track engines in Stock, Grand Stock and Limited Stock classes where they had to use stock lifters. To insure that they didn't experience HIGH RPM issues we ran them at .010" plunger to body clearance or pretty much like a solid lifter with a small amount of running room so they weren't bottomed out.

Sadly to say this wasn't my idea way back then it came from an engine builder and racer who'd been doing it for at least 20 years way back then. I'd also mention here that if you were around back then and building Pontiac engines the original HT-951R lifters were already doing this for you. They used a special retainer that snapped into the same groove in the bodies but pushed the plungers down much further reducing their travel.

If you have ever taken apart a Rhoads V-Max lifter they did the same thing but used a solid steel shim inside as a spacer. Either way the end result is reducing the plunger travel to limit the distance that they can bleed down. Since the original HT-951R lifters were designated as "high performance" parts I guess the manufacturer didn't think short plunger travel would hurt high RPM performance or restrict oil flow to the pushrods.

It's only in recent years that we have had to deal with a noisy valvetrain. This simply happens due to poorer quality control with the lifters we are using or inconsistency in the lifter to plunger tolerances as I've mentioned on these threads many times. It's actually a shame that we have to do any of this. I'd much rather see the manufacturers make better parts......FWIW......

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

I guess current information based on actually tight-lashing hydraulic lifters isn't good enough so we have to read old information based on theory vs actually doing it. Sorry folks but I guess my Google skills aren't adequate these days and I've never to date read a single blurb of information from David Vizard.

Cliff,
So just what did David Vizard say that was theory and not fact? While you may think of David as just some writer, David happens to be an engineer. Just so you know where I am coming from I happen to be good friends with David.

Stan

[slowbird]

Im guessing that doing this will require different pushrods? Seems to me tight lashing will need .100'ish long pushrod, no?

[Stan Weiss]

Brian,
While 2 full turns on a 7/16 20 stud is 0.1". I would still adjust one cylinder and than measure the needed push rod length.

Stan

[Cliff R]

Not necessarily, there are many versions of these lifters out there with plunger travel all over the place.

What method did you use to determine pushrod length during the build?

Since the retrofit HR lifters came out manufacturers of them have been making changes to them and one of them is plunger travel and how stiff the springs are under the plungers. I noticed this early on and I suppose they were or are attempting to better the product for the end user.

Morel has been making these lifters about as long as anyone else. To date haven't seen any durability issues with them, just noise. Coincidentally I just had a discussion with a good friend and very experience engine builder about HR lifters. He woln't use the Morels simply because of the noise. Can't blame him one bit, it's difficult to explain to a customer who just paid $10,000 or so for a custom built 455 with aluminum heads and HR cam "upgrade" that it's supposed to sound like a meat grinder and all that clatter isn't hurting anything......FWIW....

Stan, don't know Dave Vizard but if he made those comments way back in the early 1990's I'm sure he had good reason. To date I've seen ZERO issues running plungers in any of these lifters with minimal travel available to them. Most Pontiac street engines aren't built or will make power high enough in the RPM where one would see problems anyhow. IF you are building one to make peak power past 6000rpms part of the decision making matrix should include upgrading to a solid flat tappet or solid roller set-up vs counting on any type of hydraulic tappet to work effectively way up there......IMHO.......

[TCSGTO]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Brian,
While 2 full turns on a 7/16 20 stud is 0.1". I would still adjust one cylinder and than measure the needed push rod length.

Stan

Just thinking wouldn’t you multiply the distance change at the stud by the rocker ratio to get the plunger travel at the lifter? The valve tip is stationary and the only thing moving is the adjusting nut and pushrod/plunger.

[Stan Weiss]

Yes the push rod end is moving more than the pivot point does but not by that amount time the rocker arm ratio. Lets say are rocker arm is 1.5:1. so the push rod side is 1" and the valve side is 1.5" in length. Let say then when set the lash we have formed a a 4 degree angle. Now if all of that is correct? Then

► sin(4 * deg_to_rad) * 1.5 = 0.10463"

► sin(4 * deg_to_rad) * 2.5 = 0.17439"

Stan

PS Let me add. If he was using a 1.7:1 rocker arm ratio and we still had 1.5" on the valve side the other side would now be 0.88235"

► sin(4 * deg_to_rad) * 2.38235 = 0.16618"

[Skip Fix]

I found Rhoades would leak down even when previously pumped up when setting lash. Going around a second time they actually felt loose as they bled down and since motor was no run to generate oil pressure they stayed bled down-I assume from valve spring pressure and the design to leak down.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

I found Rhoades would leak down even when previously pumped up when setting lash. Going around a second time they actually felt loose as they bled down and since motor was no run to generate oil pressure they stayed bled down-I assume from valve spring pressure and the design to leak down.

Probably makes for a clattery engine every time it's started on a cold fire up.

[slowbird]

Got to do some work on the engine today, i was going to set the lifters like Cliff mentioned (just off the bottom) but after finally getting the lifters to bleed down i found that there was only .095-.100 of plunger travel available. At 1 full turn like i had them set ut was .015'ish from the bottom. I ended up setting them at 3/4 turn and it sounds about the same there.
I did the old listen around withva long screw driver and found i can hear the intakes chattering away quite a bit through the ports but the exhaust is quite a bit quieter. So i wondering if some of the noise isn't valve to seat contact.
I will be pulling the intake to swap it and at the time im going to pull the valley just to inspect things. Then ill call it good and head to dyno.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Got to do some work on the engine today, i was going to set the lifters like Cliff mentioned (just off the bottom) but after finally getting the lifters to bleed down i found that there was only .095-.100 of plunger travel available. At 1 full turn like i had them set ut was .015'ish from the bottom. I ended up setting them at 3/4 turn and it sounds about the same there.
I did the old listen around withva long screw driver and found i can hear the intakes chattering away quite a bit through the ports but the exhaust is quite a bit quieter. So i wondering if some of the noise isn't valve to seat contact.
I will be pulling the intake to swap it and at the time im going to pull the valley just to inspect things. Then ill call it good and head to dyno.

Be sure to bring the tri-power back so you can test fit that for the dyno.

Hoping to have the spacers made in time to make a pull or two with the Bathtub.