#21  
Old 05-20-2019, 02:45 PM
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STEELCITYFIREBIRD STEELCITYFIREBIRD is offline
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This:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...+5ba29eacb7da9
Is the unit I have in mine.

  #22  
Old 05-20-2019, 02:58 PM
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General Motors (Chevrolet) at one time had three different FIXED length Pivot balls available. That should get you real close if you can find them in the parts system.

Adjustable works but better to just install the right length one for your set-up if you can find the correct pivot Ball. The Adjustable Ball has come loose on my stuff with a lot of Powershifts. Why I later went down the "find the correct fixed Ball set-up).

If you do not Powershift the adjustable deal might work great for years.

Tom V.

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  #23  
Old 05-20-2019, 03:34 PM
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I had mine come loose Tom, some red Loctite and .eliminated. Didn't know of the multiple lengths at the time. Your a font of information!


Last edited by STEELCITYFIREBIRD; 05-20-2019 at 03:39 PM.
  #24  
Old 05-20-2019, 04:00 PM
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Do NOT know squat about Automatic Transmission vehicles except to drive one.
Only took apart two GM Trans in my whole life (Turbo 400 and Turbo 350) and that was at a Community College when I was working for the Pontiac Dealership. They offered a class. You took them apart and filled out all of the inspection sheets and then you put them back together and they HAD TO RUN properly on a Trans Test Stand. Or you failed the class.

Now GM Manual Trans Applications and Doug Nash Transmissions.
I know a bunch about them and the related parts. Chebby, Pontiac, Olds, etc.

Tom V.

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  #25  
Old 05-20-2019, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JS77 View Post
TB is 1/4” away from the fingers. My thought is to the fulcrum point closer to the engine with adjustable pivot ball. I ordered the ball and TB 1377c to have on hand. .
Isn't moving it forward going to put the fork that much closer to the weights and the bearing further away from the fingers?

If those weights move back as the clutch wears...You'll need more than the 1/4" that your off now.

Think I'd try the longer bearing before I messed with the ball. With the trans out you can stick the bearing in and see if you get the needed clearance.

Clay

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Old 05-20-2019, 06:01 PM
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Installed the Hayes adjustable pivot ball on my brother's car and it worked great.

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  #27  
Old 05-21-2019, 09:08 AM
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Throw out bearing height is easily checked, when the fork with light psi is touching the bearing/fingers, the fork pad (where the rod goes) should be at a 90 degree angle to the centerline of the engine/trans, or slightly forward. That is the easiest way to determine if it needs a diff throw out.

Air gap is measured with the pedal depressed, with a feeler gauge, between the flywheel and disc. If you have a blow proof, drill a hole.

As discs wear, you need to check air gap periodically. At RPM, the fingers can 'grow', so free play (measured at the push rod & fork) is also critical.

Never trust what manufacturers throw into a kit, always check. I've almost always had to play with throw out bearing heights. Usually though, the shortest one always worked with B&B type plates (not Long B&B).

I can't stand CF, those weights always screw up, make noise, and even come apart. It's a crutch, IMO just make the PP correctly.

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  #28  
Old 05-21-2019, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnta1 View Post
As Scott said, the tolerances may be wrong if anything is worn or changed.

My suggestion gives about 1/8" to 3/16" (?) of additional travel.
That would be enough to make it work.
(done it many times)
Takes about 2 seconds to take out.

A pic of the A-body linkage and the bumper:




X2, Johnta1 input worked for me, easy to try, if it don't work just put the rubber bumper back in place.

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  #29  
Old 05-21-2019, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HWYSTR455 View Post
Throw out bearing height is easily checked, when the fork with light psi is touching the bearing/fingers, the fork pad (where the rod goes) should be at a 90 degree angle to the centerline of the engine/trans, or slightly forward. That is the easiest way to determine if it needs a diff throw out.

Air gap is measured with the pedal depressed, with a feeler gauge, between the flywheel and disc. If you have a blow proof, drill a hole.

As discs wear, you need to check air gap periodically. At RPM, the fingers can 'grow', so free play (measured at the push rod & fork) is also critical.

Never trust what manufacturers throw into a kit, always check. I've almost always had to play with throw out bearing heights. Usually though, the shortest one always worked with B&B type plates (not Long B&B).

I can't stand CF, those weights always screw up, make noise, and even come apart. It's a crutch, IMO just make the PP correctly. .
Several excellent comments here that I totally agree with.

I got away from the Diaphragm style Pressure Plates in the 60s and for years ran the B&B 3 finger Pressure Plates. I always pre-assembled the parts: Flywheel, Pressure Plate, and Disc on a table, torqued to spec and measured the finger heights.
Only once were the fingers were not the same height and I sent that Pressure Plate back to the supplier and got a different one.

I also measured from the Crankshaft Pilot Bushing/Pilot Bearing cavity (one in the back of the crankshaft to the height of the three fingers. This helped me identify a "fat or thin" Clutch Disc when compressed. I always glass-beaded the disc surface to remove the boiled off film and the disc always acted like a fresh disc and lasted for years and years.

Last thing, a hole in the Blow-proof Lakewood Bellhousing at the bottom for adjusting minimal pressure plate travel required to release the disc. Some Tech guys never saw the hole, Some never even did more than glance at the Scattershield. They were just happy to see a Lakewood vs a stock bellhousing.

Tom V.

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  #30  
Old 05-22-2019, 06:45 AM
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I'm no expert and I went thru hell converting my '71 lemans to manual trans.
The throw out bearing in the kits are way too small. I couldn't figure it out. I went to Napa; the guy at the counter knew exactly what was wrong. he said the kits are "one size fits all".
he showed me three different sized throwout bearings for the same app.
mine needed the biggest one; about 2.5" tall if I recall correctly.
And then it all went together easily...

  #31  
Old 05-26-2019, 10:47 AM
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Update
Got everything out yesterday. TB was on the fork correctly and fork was on pivot ball. Clutch disc was installed correct. Removed flywheel to measure deck height. For future reference the Hays deck height is different from stock. The deck height for me was .805. According to CF, stock is .960. I installed a lakewood adjustable pivot ball to bring it closer to the engine. Bolted clutch back in and started looking at clutch fork. I’m 99.99% sure that I bought it from Ames but can’t find the receipt. It doesn’t look like a Pontiac fork but was informed that it is the replacement Ames sells. Looked it up and it is the cheaper option and their description says that it will work.
Question is, should I use the fork or order one that is physically correct?
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  #32  
Old 05-26-2019, 11:10 AM
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It looks a little wimpy? And lot different?

(but haven't seen my clutch fork in 20 years )


Wonder if the pivot point is the same also?



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  #33  
Old 05-26-2019, 11:29 AM
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we use GM 9787069 pn

yours looks to be the replacement they sell/sold...

the geometry is not correct for a Pontiac,,,

the distance between the adjustable push rod end at the cup of the fork ,and the center point of pivot ball is different
and
the nuetral position of the contact point of the adjustable push rod tip and cup on the fork moves forward
in relation to the tip of the pivot ball also
so the geometry is different in the leverage also when using this fork

https://www.google.com/search?q=9787...hrome&ie=UTF-8

  #34  
Old 05-26-2019, 11:42 AM
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Default Will Work?

Will work with a stock style pressure plate.

The sling-out/centrifugal weights on the CF plate sticks out past where the back of a stock type plate is. That's why the fork hit the weights before the bearing made contact with the fingers.

I'm still thinking longer/taller bearing so it can make contact with the fingers before the fork hits the weights.

Factory fork may or may not clear the weights with the short release bearing.

Did the longer pivot ball make your clearance problem worse? I'm picturing the fork hitting the weights sooner and the bearing being further from toucing the fingers. Like the ball would have to move back for the fork to reach around.

Clay

  #35  
Old 05-26-2019, 12:06 PM
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I had same problem, TB was wrong

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Old 05-26-2019, 12:14 PM
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We didn’t get it back together. Rechecking everything as we reinstalled it caught the difference in the clutch fork. Just wondering if anyone else has run this set up?

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Old 05-26-2019, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Thelander View Post
we use GM 9787069 pn

yours looks to be the replacement they sell/sold...

the geometry is not correct for a Pontiac,,,

the distance between the adjustable push rod end at the cup of the fork ,and the center point of pivot ball is different
and
the nuetral position of the contact point of the adjustable push rod tip and cup on the fork moves forward
in relation to the tip of the pivot ball also
so the geometry is different in the leverage also when using this fork

https://www.google.com/search?q=9787...hrome&ie=UTF-8
I agree with this post.

Tom V.

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  #38  
Old 05-31-2019, 11:11 PM
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Ok, set the adjustable pivot ball according to CF instructions. Used a new fork from Ames. Supposedly the correct one. Now the short TB that comes from CF is right on the fingers with the adjusting rod screwed all the way in. Worst part is that the PP still doesn’t move. Could it be bad right out of the box? Everything feels really bad with this set up.

  #39  
Old 06-01-2019, 04:55 PM
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Yeah, if the plate fingers don't move, it's a defective PP. All the complaints I hear about the CF plates is the weights hang up, fly off, or rattle. You can try freeing them up, but I would send it back.

And you made sure the disc is in with the flywheel side correctly oriented?

You can back off the adjusting ball and get more room. I personally always just shuffled throw out bearings and was successful getting the factory type ball to work.


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  #40  
Old 06-01-2019, 08:43 PM
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I got a longer TB that probably would work with the stock ball. Checked everything, just have never seen a brand new PP seized up. I have a 10.5 to swap to try and isolate the problem.

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