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Old 09-28-2022, 08:13 AM
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The Delphi hardened foot lifters, which Melling and many other companies sold as the 951# part number are apparently not being made right now. The plant in Mexico stopped making them.

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Old 09-28-2022, 08:51 AM
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Just curious, was topline shut-down for a year and then the employees started it back up again?

I am getting conflicting info on who is making lifters in the USA. Apparently Johnson makes the lifters for Sealed Power and Melling now. The Top Line lifters look different compared to a SP as well.

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Old 09-28-2022, 10:03 AM
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Just curious, was topline shut-down for a year and then the employees started it back up again?

I am getting conflicting info on who is making lifters in the USA. Apparently Johnson makes the lifters for Sealed Power and Melling now. The Top Line lifters look different compared to a SP as well.
Currently Hylift Johnson does not make lifters for Sealed power, elgin, Melling, or Speed pro. Those are likely all oversea garbage like the lifters Pual K has pictures of with the bottom of the lifter worn off. That is unless you happen to find a NOS set of Delphi’s from those companies.

You can pretty much tell a lifter made by HLJ right now by looking at the price, just under 200 and up $$$


Last edited by Jay S; 09-28-2022 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 09-28-2022, 10:35 AM
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Currently Hylift Johnson does not make lifters for Sealed power, elgin, Melling, or Speed pro. Those are likely all oversea garbage like the lifters Pual K has pictures of with the bottom of the lifter worn off. That is unless you happen to find a NOS set of Delphi’s from those companies.

You can pretty much tell a lifter made by HLJ right now by looking at the price, just under 200 and up $$$
A lot of folks seem to think they will get a HLJ lifter that was re-boxed because the generic lifter number for a Pontiac is 951. If a place is selling cam & lifter packages for $189.99 with free shipping you won't be getting a quality set of $200 lifters with that deal.

The performance automotive business isn't like the HVAC industry.... We are doing great if we can mark up a part 10% over cost, with most being closer to 5% (which rarely covers our time spent ordering the part and answering all the questions that go along with it).

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Old 09-28-2022, 12:17 PM
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Just curious as I'm unfamiliar the process but, why couldn't one have the lifters nitrided along with the camshaft?

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Old 09-28-2022, 12:23 PM
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I've been nitriding the flat tappet cams I've used but Comp never offered the service on their lifters last time I did it, so not sure. I have been using the EDM lifters though.

Next time I'm at Paul's I plan to ask him about his cryo treating to see if I can have the cam and lifters cryo treated as well. Thought about that with even the next roller I do.

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Old 09-28-2022, 01:03 PM
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Nitriding lifters the thin layer of the nitriding will just flake off.

When a cam is nitrided and used with crappy soft metal lifters like what is being sold now by a lot of companies the cam and lifter hardness get’s too close together and the nitrided cam will surface will flake. Go a step put further with really really low hardness lifter, with the hardness of the lifter and cam almost being the same or softer, then the cam nitriding will flake, and will eat the lifter. (See Paul’s picture).

I


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Old 09-28-2022, 03:49 PM
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Okay I spoke with the tech from Johnston lifters and he was nice to share some information with me/us.

They used to use a foundry in Chicago up to about 10 years ago. Then quality could not be maintained so they went out of the FT making business as nothing they could find in the USA was up to snuff quality wise. He indicated that the two main problems are:

1) During casting, on a casting tree, the face must cool first before the lifter. Adds costs and steps to the process.

2) Asicular carbides must be present at least 200 thou deep.

3) Lifter makers are only concerned with hardness which is a major problem when both the first two points above are not achieved.

With even HLJ lifters failing we may have lost the technology for good now actually. Anyone want to call HLJ and ask how they cool their lifter face and is their acicular cabides at least 200 thou deep?

Starting to wonder if made in the USA does not mean much anymore...

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Old 09-28-2022, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P@blo View Post
Okay I spoke with the tech from Johnston lifters and he was nice to share some information with me/us.

They used to use a foundry in Chicago up to about 10 years ago. Then quality could not be maintained so they went out of the FT making business as nothing they could find in the USA was up to snuff quality wise. He indicated that the two main problems are:

1) During casting, on a casting tree, the face must cool first before the lifter. Adds costs and steps to the process.

2) Asicular carbides must be present at least 200 thou deep.

3) Lifter makers are only concerned with hardness which is a major problem when both the first two points above are not achieved.

With even HLJ lifters failing we may have lost the technology for good now actually. Anyone want to call HLJ and ask how they cool their lifter face and is their acicular cabides at least 200 thou deep?

Starting to wonder if made in the USA does not mean much anymore...
Did the Johnson rep say they made flat tappets lifters for anyone? I am still pretty positive they made Isky’s flat tappet lifters up till a few years ago. Since they are in partnership of some of the higher end HR lifter’s Isky offers I am curious if they still provide Isky’s HFT lifters for Isky only. I guess I could call them and ask them myself.

Eaton lifters often claim USA made. Paul Spott’s sell’s Eaton lifters. Not sure what is done to get that claim. Big conglomerate’s kind of play shell games with USA made.


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Old 09-28-2022, 04:13 PM
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"Starting to wonder if made in the USA does not mean much anymore..."




We talked about USA made early on in this thread and why it doesn't always mean what it says, and hasn't for a pretty long time.

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Old 09-28-2022, 04:34 PM
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Did the Johnson rep say they made flat tappets lifters for anyone? I am still pretty positive they made Isky’s flat tappet lifters up till a few years ago. Since they are in partnership of some of the higher end HR lifter’s Isky offers I am curious if they still provide Isky’s HFT lifters for Isky only. I guess I could call them and ask them myself.

Eaton lifters often claim USA made. Paul Spott’s sell’s Eaton lifters. Not sure what is done to get that claim. Big conglomerate’s kind of play shell games with USA made.
Joe is the mans' name if you ever do call them, great guy. He did say they stopped making FT followers once they could not source out quality castings which has been ~10 years. I asked if they make any FT lifters for anyone and he said "no, only roller lifters now". He suggested their 2112-OPR that is available through Butler.

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Old 09-28-2022, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
"Starting to wonder if made in the USA does not mean much anymore..."




We talked about USA made early on in this thread and why it doesn't always mean what it says, and hasn't for a pretty long time.
What it could also mean is that even the one remaining lifter company doing their own casting is no magic bullet. Unless they have all three of the points I listed covered, one is not much better off.

Strange HLJ does not mention any of this in their catalogue but focus on just the lifter finishing being the issue?

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Old 09-28-2022, 04:50 PM
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I agreee it's all murky water, but USA made claims really doesn't hold a bunch of weight either.

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Old 09-29-2022, 01:29 PM
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Well now I'm kinda scared after reading all this. I've had 2 cams go flat. Both with Rhoads lifters. Now, I have a melling spc-8 cam and crower cam saver lifters. I have not run engine yet. And won't this year now. Being winter is coming. I may build a run in stand this winter to break cam in. Or....... pull out and save for a roller???

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Old 09-29-2022, 02:02 PM
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Gloom and doom. Now you're going to get them started on the whole roller discussion. Perfect

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Old 09-29-2022, 02:36 PM
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Interesting discussion for a retired metallurgical engineer.

In my experience, the USA vs Mexico vs Asia vs India vs Anywhere is NOT the issue. It's about the business model, then managing both the product and the supply chain to match. Period.

If your business model requires holding failure and return rates to a low number, it's going to cost. The product specs have to be solid and the supply chain has to be held accountable for delivering them. Quality is NOT free. R&D Engineers, manufacturing engineers, sourcing managers, QA operations, performance tracking, customer support, and all the infrastructure to make it work are simply expensive.

What I see today is how easy it is for even a big company to stay far away from manufacturing and instead, outsource the finished product from a manufacturer that claims they manage the quality. If you ship this product and then have a high return rate, you blame the manufacturer, find a different one, and keep your customers guessing about inconsistent product performance.

You may call me cynical but show me the sourcing contract for an outsourced lifter. If it was easy and obvious, this thread wouldn't exist.

As to what makes a "good" HFT lifter, I did not work with cast iron (nor lifters) but can follow some of the terminology and comments in this thread. Thanks to P@blo for relaying the Johnson comments.

My interpretation and guess is Johnson's lifters were made of "chilled" iron blanks which they chose to not source elsewhere but the reasons aren't clear.

fyi - here's the microstructure I think P@blo's note describes. The white stuff is iron carbide:

https://old.foundrygate.com/upload/a...ast%20Iron.pdf

I personally don't think Johnson's way was the only way to deliver a durable and high quality (repeatable) lifter but at least they offered some insight into their way. For example, I'm confident a good HFT lifter could be made from steel but it would cost more than I'd want to pay.

I agree with P@blo it would be interesting to hear more about Hylift's solution. I don't think it has to match Johnson's but if they deliver a robust product consistently, they definitely invested and care. It's not easy nor inexpensive.

If Hylift now outsources what they used to do in-house, they at least know their own recipe and hopefully can manage their supply chain to deliver it. Contrast this with someone like Summit who I suspect never knew the details and probably sources to a "generic" set of requirements.

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Old 09-29-2022, 02:37 PM
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Default Topline lifters

I just ordered a set of 951 lifters directly from Topline for $184 plus shipping.

You have to order by phone ((773) 483-2378), and the fellow I dealt with (Paul) was really helpful and knowledgeable.

He said that Topline's lifters were indeed made in Michigan, and to his knowledge the only ones still manufactured entirely in the US.

It will be some months before they get installed (along with an NOS 068 cam) in my WS block, but I'll let everyone know if I run into a problem...

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Old 09-29-2022, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay S View Post
Nitriding lifters the thin layer of the nitriding will just flake off.

When a cam is nitrided and used with crappy soft metal lifters like what is being sold now by a lot of companies the cam and lifter hardness get’s too close together and the nitrided cam will surface will flake. Go a step put further with really really low hardness lifter, with the hardness of the lifter and cam almost being the same or softer, then the cam nitriding will flake, and will eat the lifter. (See Paul’s picture).

I
If it’s done correctly, nitriding should never flake off. The problem I see with nitriding is it increases the diameter of the component being nitrided.

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Old 09-29-2022, 02:43 PM
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Perhaps it’s time for us to think about tool steel solid lifters.......I recently purchased a set for $470......for my air cooled 4-cylinder VW build.....that’s only 8 lifters. All the Type I engines are pretty much stuck using solids. At least with solids occasional lash checks will let you know if any issues are starting with the valvetrain, unlike hydraulics.

A lot harder to swap cams in one of these as you have to tear it down far enough to split the engine case.

Every make is experiencing issues with soft lifters.

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Old 09-29-2022, 02:43 PM
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Well now I'm kinda scared after reading all this. I've had 2 cams go flat. Both with Rhoads lifters. Now, I have a melling spc-8 cam and crower cam saver lifters. I have not run engine yet. And won't this year now. Being winter is coming. I may build a run in stand this winter to break cam in. Or....... pull out and save for a roller???
If you verify the push rods are turning you should be fine. Curious did you remove the inner valve springs and use a good detergent motor oil?

With the roller failures right up their with HFT, looks like it's a crap shoot. And there are far more people running FT cams.

B-man is onto something with the tool steel solid FT lifters if funds allow.

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