[Heybuck]

An ACCURATE dealer list directory right here on this PY site.

I see there are basically two reference sites.
1.) The Ultimate GTO site
2.) Wallace Racing.

Now I can't be too critical of either of those sites, after all they have compiled the lists and I haven't done anything much to assist.

However, I see that the last update on the Ultimate GTO site was October 2009, very close to 9 years ago and the Wallace Racing site was updated 10 months back.

A long time ago, I wrote to Ultimate GTO querying the dealer code for my own '66 Grand Prix. My PHS shows the dealer number as 23/350. Dealer name: Bill Stuart Pontiac Company, 625 Blossom Hill Road, Los Gatos CA.

The Ultimate GTO site shows 23/350 as "dealer unknown"
Wallace racing shows dealer 23/350 as "Mogul Pontiac, Yuba City CA" Yuba City is 200+ miles from Los Gatos!

Ultimate GTO never responded to my letter and I have never queried the anomaly with Wallace Racing.

With the number of members on this site who are interested in the real history of their cars, I wonder if somehow we could start our own record of dealers.
If a dealer number is used several times for different dealers if they come and go over the years, then each dealer could be shown under the same number.

Just an idea on my behalf. What do others think of this?

Ian

[marxjunk]

do all the work..put a list together..post it somewhere, and ask for it to be made a stickey...then keep it updated...simple

[John V.]

John Wallace is a member here and does a good job tracking Pontiac Dealer Codes.

He often posts a link to his Dealer Code list in response to questions here.

I will not be surprised if he checks in soon on this thread.

He is very familiar with the alphabetical code assignment format that Pontiac used.

As to Code 23-350, John shows Mogul Pontiac as probably changed from earlier years, I'm sure because he realized it didn't "fit" alphabetically. I'm also sure he was given the input from another hobbyist, the only way the Codes become known. However, I suspect this was actually a case of a misread of the code.

Reason being, he also shows Mogol as Code 23-250 where it "fits" more appropriately in alphabetical sequence.

In both cases, the "source" was a '73 Formula, perhaps even the same document source.

Not sure what documentation you have to identify your dealer code but Bill Stuart Pontiac also is a proper alphabetical "fit" for Code 23-350.

PM John W. and I am sure he will make the correction on his site.

Mike Noun, another member here, also has a good record of Pontiac Dealer Codes that he uses to produce his excellent repro Window Stickers. I don't think he publishes a list anywhere but he may be able to help if you inquire thru his website.

[eaglesan13]

I'm from the South Bay area and know that the Pontiac dealer in Los Gatos for many years was Stevens Pontiac. I actually used to work right around the corner from it. I have never heard of Bill Stuart Pontiac, but I guess they could have been the dealer before Stevens Pontiac. The dealer number for Stevens Pontiac was 23345.

[johnta1]

I would be very happy if more people sent in their dealer codes!!!





Dealer input form


I am really the only one that adds to my database. Not many people send anything in.
I look at all the PHS's posted and any other info I can find.
I look on ebay at a lot of cars for this info. But I don't/won't spend my life there.


I have been on the Canadian Pontiacs site which has a dealer codes thread. Got a few from there, but now it seems to be just pics of dealer locations.


Used to have a ton of Buick-Pontiac codes, but they are not compatible to Pontiac setup.






I have mentioned this quite a few times, but usually get no response.


Heybuck I would be interested in any codes you have.


I also update it quite often, just recently I think.
(also have a lot of other databases I keep up with)


PS: The date at the end of each dealer is when I first put the dealer in, not when the whole database was updated. I also started adding what car(s) the code came from.

[johnta1]

With the 345 dealer - Stephens being at 620 Blossom Hill Rd Los Gatos and 350 dealer - Stuart being at 625 Blossom Hill Rd Los Gatos seems strange?


Some dealers have more than one dealer #, possibly Stevens bought Stuart and just used the 345?


Don't know, all conjecture on my part.


It would be nice to have all of the codes though.

[Held for Ransom]

http://www.forums.maxperformanceinc....d.php?t=685977

I'm sure he got the correct listing from me...LOL

[The Boss]

John has been an invaluable resource for this board and this hobby - consider donating to help support his efforts.

There is a paypal button to the left at the top of his home page - it's easy to click on and every dollar goes directly to support his work.

He's too humble to ask for this, but I'm not.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/index.html

[John V.]

According to his obit, Bill Stuart established his Los Gatos Pontiac dealership in 1961. He was originally located at 110 S. Santa Cruz Ave., a location that had also been home to Bob Peterson Pontiac and Milt Frasier Pontiac, I believe before him.

Assuming they both operated at the Blossom Hill location, I believe Bill Stuart would have moved the biz to the Blossom Hill location, probably in the late '60s or early '70s. Thereafter he would have sold the biz to Ted Stevens, who would have been assigned a new dealer code by PMD.

The latest mention I could find of Bill Stuart Pontiac involved a 1966 Pontiac sold new.

The earliest mention I've found of Ted Stevens Pontiac was 1980. Operating at the Blossom Hill location. He closed the biz due to poor profitability on or about Dec. 31, 1987. Assets were sold to Moore Buick operating nearby.

[fiedlerh]

There is a big dealer list at ultimategto.com, but I think everyone knows about that one. Looks like the site hasn't been updated lately. (Like mine, LOL)
http://www.ultimategto.com/art18.htm

[Heybuck]

Just so that no-one gets their knickers in a knot, thinking I might be stirring up the pot, well I can assure everyone that I'm NOT.

I had noticed a thread from muscle_collector asking about dealer code 19-527 and the fact that it wasn't found. That got me to thinking that if there was a readily accessible dealer code link on this PY site, it might be easier and more informative for anyone who is opening the PY pages.

Just as an example, if on the main page was a heading to click on showing dealer codes and it then linked straight to Wallace Racing Dealer Codes, that would do the trick.

I have looked at John's page in the past but it hasn't jelled with me to send him any questions or information. I suppose, I've looked at dealer code 23-350 in the past and thought to myself, that's not right but never gone the extra mile to find out where the anomaly is/was. John's site is GOOD and now I have been made aware of the Paypal link, he can look forward to some Aussie money in his account.

My dealer code information came directly from the PHS information pack plus I also received the original window sticker when I bought the car. It is clearly typed up as Bill Stuart Pontiac Company with the address.

Further, I also received when I bought my car, the original salesman's personal business card and it had his residence phone number on the card. So not long after I bought the car, I dialled up the number and spoke to the salesman's widow. She was over the moon that I had called and she detailed very clearly that her husband had joined Bill Stuart in 1964 or 1965 and was there till about 1967 or 1968 whereupon he left and went to a Cadillac dealer.

The Bill Stuart Pontiac Company was certainly at 625 Blossom Hill Road, Los Gatos in November 1965 when my 1966 Grand Prix was sold new.

Anyway, enough of all that. My original posting started with the word "Moderators", so I hope someone might heed all this and we might get to see a direct link to Wallace racing on the main page. To Ultimate GTO as well although as has already been pointed out, they are 9 years out of date so maybe they have lost interest.

Ian

[The Boss]

We may not be Moderators, but we did stay at a Holiday Inn Resort last night.

The idea is a good one but the lack of information between Ultimate GTO & John's site is not one that would be cleared up by having a third repository here. Vigilant forwarding of data to John (and a sticky link from here) would be the best way of solving that. It's an incomplete data set but time & effort can fill in the blanks.

[Firedup6975]

You would have to contact an Administrator to request a forum add or change.

[John V.]

Found more information.

Ted Stevens Pontiac was notified by a PMD letter dated March 18, 1987 that a new Pontiac dealership at 750 W. Capitol Expy in San Jose had been awarded. In April, Ted Stevens Pontiac filed a protest with the Calif New Vehicle Board.

The case proceedings state that Ted Stevens established his Pontiac dealership in 1968, earlier than I had guessed. He also took on GMC trucks in 1968 and operated as a dual franchise.

It does not say where the dealership was located in 1968 but does note that it is operating at 620 Blossom Hill Rd. on a 2.9 acre lot in Los Gatos and the structure thereon was then 24 years old (so apparently a building erected in 1963).

So it appears that Bill Stuart Pontiac likely built the new dealership building on Blossom Hill around 1963 (also earlier than I had guessed), moving his dealership from the old S. Santa Cruz Ave. location about 5 years before selling the biz to Ted Stevens.

Ted Stevens Pontiac argued that a new Pontiac dealer in San Jose would harm his biz.

The new San Jose dealership was to be owned by Cerritos Management Group which already owned a number of other foreign make dealerships plus Chevy and Olds.

The facts presented to the Board were very unflattering to Stevens Pontiac, including Consumer satisfaction rankings and per unit profit being much higher that other Pontiac dealers. The Board ruled that Stevens Pontiac failed to make its case and PMD was allowed to establish the new franchise.

As previously noted, Ted Stevens proceeded to close the Pontiac dealership at the end of 1987.

I could not resolve the 620 vs. 625 address conflict but it was not uncommon for a dealer to have a delivery lot that differed from the office address. My guess is that the office was located at 620 Blossom Hill and deliveries were made across the street at 625 Blossom Hill. Perhaps he displayed his inventory on that lot, else it could have been a used car lot, or maybe even just an easy place to off load the cars.

I believe Ted Stevens operated an Acura dealership for a time at the 620 location after the demise of his Pontiac franchise. He had another court case with unions filing a grievance that his union agreements previously entered into were not honored when he switched to Acura.

More recently, Los Gatos Luxury Cars (Lamborghini, Bentley, Acura) occupied the old facilities. In 2014, they announced plans to demolish the old showroom and facilities and replace it with a modern facility about quadruple the size. It appears that Los Gatos Luxury Cars is still at the 620 Blossom Hill address but in new buildings.

It looks like the 625 Blossom Hill address has condo buildings on it now.

[John V.]

FWIW, PHS reportedly has a complete list of Dealer Codes that they use when creating their reproduction Window Stickers. I do not know how "complete" their record is, depends when it was created and whether defunct dealers were removed from the list. To my knowledge, they have never shared their list publicly so that it can be scrutinized and compared with other known records.

I mentioned already, Mike Noun also has been compiling a more comprehensive list of Dealer Codes.

As the Bill Stuart Pontiac vs. Ted Stevens Pontiac story suggests, it is important to know the time frame for when a particular dealership operated. Although in this case, new Dealer Codes were issued by PMD for each. But it is not clear if this was always the case.

[johnta1]

Thanks for the info, John!

[Firedup6975]

Originally Posted by Heybuck

An ACCURATE dealer list directory right here on this PY site.

I see there are basically two reference sites.
1.) The Ultimate GTO site
2.) Wallace Racing.

Now I can't be too critical of either of those sites, after all they have compiled the lists and I haven't done anything much to assist.

However, I see that the last update on the Ultimate GTO site was October 2009, very close to 9 years ago and the Wallace Racing site was updated 10 months back.

A long time ago, I wrote to Ultimate GTO querying the dealer code for my own '66 Grand Prix. My PHS shows the dealer number as 23/350. Dealer name: Bill Stuart Pontiac Company, 625 Blossom Hill Road, Los Gatos CA.

The Ultimate GTO site shows 23/350 as "dealer unknown"
Wallace racing shows dealer 23/350 as "Mogul Pontiac, Yuba City CA" Yuba City is 200+ miles from Los Gatos!

Ultimate GTO never responded to my letter and I have never queried the anomaly with Wallace Racing.

With the number of members on this site who are interested in the real history of their cars, I wonder if somehow we could start our own record of dealers.
If a dealer number is used several times for different dealers if they come and go over the years, then each dealer could be shown under the same number.

Just an idea on my behalf. What do others think of this?

Ian

An admin needs to add, or change forums. Contact Ccass.

[eaglesan13]

Stevens did switch to Acura when he stopped selling Pontiacs. I don't know anything about the reason why. The Pontiac dealership in Los Gatos was moved down the street and merged with Moore Buick, which I'm pretty sure was the last family-owned dealership in the area. The story about the new Pontiac dealership on West Capitol expressway makes sense. For many years most of the new car dealers were located on the El Camino Real (Sunnyvale/Mountain View area), and Stevens Creek Blvd (Santa Clara and San Jose). West Capitol Expressway was in South San Jose, and as that area was being developed there were a number of new car dealers that opened on Capitol Expressway.

Stevens eventually sold the Acura store in Los Gatos to T M Management. He also sold his Honda store to them (which was located about a block away). I worked for T M Management at the Honda store briefly in 1990-1991. Both of these facilities were too small for the volume of cars they were selling at the time. The last time I was down in Los Gatos (about five years ago) the Honda store was gone, having been replaced by condos. Not surprising, since the housing in that area is so expensive.

The slight numerical differences in the addresses of these dealerships makes sense too. Sometimes a dealership started small and needed to grow, so they moved, sometimes right next door or across the street. Sometimes it was the opposite, a car line was selling less, and wanted to downsize. Many times the larger dealerships just swallowed up one of the smaller car lots that was right next door. I worked at St Claire Cadillac in the 1980's. It was on Stevens Creek Blvd in Santa Clara, and it was huge, the largest Cadillac dealer in Northern CA. However, during the 80's and early 90''s, as Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Toyota, etc, were growing, Cadillac sales were dropping. St Claire was owned by a guy named Don Lucas, who also owned the local BMW dealership. As Cadillac sales dropped and BMW sales increased, he needed less room for Cadillacs and more room for BMW's. So he moved the Cadillac dealership to the BMW location and vice versus. (They were only about a block away). The same thing happened with the Pontiac Dealership which was across the street from St. Claire Cadillac. Allison Pontiac closed and was replaced by Stevens Creek Toyota (which had been half a block away on the same side of the street), and Stevens Creek Honda (also owned by Don Lucas) replaced the Dodge Dealership, etc....

As an aside, the "dealership row" on Stevens Creek Blvd is about four blocks long with new car dealers on both sides of the street. One side of the street is in the City of San Jose and the other side of the street is in the City of Santa Clara.

Originally Posted by John V.

Found more information.

Ted Stevens Pontiac was notified by a PMD letter dated March 18, 1987 that a new Pontiac dealership at 750 W. Capitol Expy in San Jose had been awarded. In April, Ted Stevens Pontiac filed a protest with the Calif New Vehicle Board.

The case proceedings state that Ted Stevens established his Pontiac dealership in 1968, earlier than I had guessed. He also took on GMC trucks in 1968 and operated as a dual franchise.

It does not say where the dealership was located in 1968 but does note that it is operating at 620 Blossom Hill Rd. on a 2.9 acre lot in Los Gatos and the structure thereon was then 24 years old (so apparently a building erected in 1963).

So it appears that Bill Stuart Pontiac likely built the new dealership building on Blossom Hill around 1963 (also earlier than I had guessed), moving his dealership from the old S. Santa Cruz Ave. location about 5 years before selling the biz to Ted Stevens.

Ted Stevens Pontiac argued that a new Pontiac dealer in San Jose would harm his biz.

The new San Jose dealership was to be owned by Cerritos Management Group which already owned a number of other foreign make dealerships plus Chevy and Olds.

The facts presented to the Board were very unflattering to Stevens Pontiac, including Consumer satisfaction rankings and per unit profit being much higher that other Pontiac dealers. The Board ruled that Stevens Pontiac failed to make its case and PMD was allowed to establish the new franchise.

As previously noted, Ted Stevens proceeded to close the Pontiac dealership at the end of 1987.

I could not resolve the 620 vs. 625 address conflict but it was not uncommon for a dealer to have a delivery lot that differed from the office address. My guess is that the office was located at 620 Blossom Hill and deliveries were made across the street at 625 Blossom Hill. Perhaps he displayed his inventory on that lot, else it could have been a used car lot, or maybe even just an easy place to off load the cars.

I believe Ted Stevens operated an Acura dealership for a time at the 620 location after the demise of his Pontiac franchise. He had another court case with unions filing a grievance that his union agreements previously entered into were not honored when he switched to Acura.

More recently, Los Gatos Luxury Cars (Lamborghini, Bentley, Acura) occupied the old facilities. In 2014, they announced plans to demolish the old showroom and facilities and replace it with a modern facility about quadruple the size. It appears that Los Gatos Luxury Cars is still at the 620 Blossom Hill address but in new buildings.

It looks like the 625 Blossom Hill address has condo buildings on it now.

[ponchjoe]

Bart, can we make this a sticky?

[brut4s]

I didn't see this dealership on either site. It wad about 5 miles from the Fremont plant and Fremont drag strip. Di Giulio Pontiac. My '65 GTO was sold there to the original owner who I bought it from