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  #21  
Old 08-28-2022, 07:15 PM
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My 68 GTO highway MPG has doubled with OVERDRIVE.

  #22  
Old 08-28-2022, 08:43 PM
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Speaking of Gas Mileage: Ralph Moody and his Moody Mobile.

https://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread945991/pg1

"So I was at work, and working in a hospital, we began discussing healthcare and the financial problems that are resulting from the low reimbursements which are directly impacting patient care. The conversation then progressed to other ways the government I screwing people, and ended with this ...

My coworker has an uncle whom I had not heard of, Ralph Moody. She said she forgets what he did, but he created an 80+ mpg car 30 years ago, that garnered offer from foreign interests in excess of 20 million. She said her uncle was very patriotic, and turned them down wanting to sell the technology to an American car company perhaps, but not to a foreign group. This car, which did not start out as a low MPG project, utilized a carburetor they created to achieve these outstanding results. The federal government showed a lot of interest in the car, so much that they confiscated it. My coworker said the car still sits in a storage area in North Carolina and that her family is allowed to use it, but the property can not be passed down, it no longer belongs to them. I am not one to believe in these magic carburetors, I would love to know more about this particular car. Here is an article about it from 1979. Please keep to the specific topic at hand and do not go off topic with other "suppressed" technologies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Moody

Another article from 1980 (a year after the big publicity) sheds more light on the topic.

First, they didnt want to sell the engine to the car companies. What they wanted was the car companies to sell them cheap bodies so that they could fit their own engines and sell the whole car.

Second, "a similar" car from the same workshop did undergo third party testing and failed.

################################################## #########

So here is where I come in. I was working for Ford Emissions and FE organization at the time.

(The 3rd Party was The Ford Emission Lab where my boss Homer Perry was trusted by the Race Teams. He was the Ford Racing Manager.)

The reason why it failed was because it was on a calibrated F.E. Dyno cell).
NO WHERE NEAR 80 MPG on the "road testing" they did around Moody's shop.

Homer did have the car tested and it DID achieve 53 MPG on a calibrated F.E Cell.
30 MPG short of advertised but still a great number for 1979.

That was the end of that story.

Tom V.

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  #23  
Old 08-28-2022, 09:17 PM
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Sold by NAPA back in the day. Picked a couple up at a swap meet for grins. Should give me better performance and gas mileage...
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  #24  
Old 08-28-2022, 09:40 PM
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Sold by NAPA back in the day. Picked a couple up at a swap meet for grins. Should give me better performance and gas mileage...
Not to keen on those brass grommets below the primaries!

  #25  
Old 08-28-2022, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by firechicken View Post
Not to keen on those brass grommets below the primaries!
X2

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  #26  
Old 08-29-2022, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
Biggest change in F.E. occurred with lower numerical axle ratios and more gears in the transmissions. Example: GM/Ford's efforts to produce a viable transmission with strength, and 7, 8, or 10 speeds.

Corvettes: 10 Speeds, F-150 Trucks: 10 speeds, a few still have 7 speeds or 6 speeds.

Turn the engine slower, you get fewer Combustion events (less Power Pulses), use less fuel, and have less wear on the engines.

So many, many years ago when there were Transmissions with Over Drive, the fuel consumed was less in over-drive mode.

History ALWAYS has Lessons IF you are Willing to Listen.

Tom V.

That helped towing capacities quiet a bit too, who woukd have ever thought we’d see 8 -10 speed transmissions in a passenger vehicle . That was a huge improvement and they’ve been durable too. Now the VNT transmissions are another story. Good idea badly implemented. For those who don’t know that type trans is kind of like a snowmobile no gears really.

I’d add EFI as a huge fuel saver as well, that’s an interesting one because it appears to have increased longevity but it’s hard to tell because the odometer change came i. About the same time where car could total more than 100k miles and the interstate systems got expanded around that time too so lots of variables.

Turbos could have Been used much more effectively on gas cars too but The big 3 always sized them too small because of power to weight and warranty concerns , sadly they made so much heat they ended up with a ton of warranty issues anyway. Poor turbos never get a break, first had draw through to deal with especially in boats (bad implementation) then the poor sizing issues, now ford gets it right and electric comes in to blow it out of the water . Too little too late for turbos .

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Last edited by turbo69bird; 08-29-2022 at 11:29 AM.
  #27  
Old 08-29-2022, 11:31 AM
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Not to keen on those brass grommets below the primaries!
Yeah no doubt that’s a bad day waiting to happen,. Save .53 cents on fuel but destroy your engine when it drops into a cyl. Or bends. Valve .

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  #28  
Old 08-29-2022, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo69bird View Post
That helped towing capacities quite a bit too, who would have ever thought we’d see 8 -10 speed transmissions in a passenger vehicle . That was a huge improvement and they’ve been durable too. Now the VNT transmissions are another story. Good idea badly implemented. For those who don’t know that type trans is kind of like a snowmobile no gears really.

Turbos could have Been used much more effectively on gas cars too but The big 3 always sized them too small because of power to weight and warranty concerns , sadly they made so much heat they ended up with a ton of warranty issues anyway. THAT IS 1963 TIME FRAME.

Answer:

THE WARRANTY COMPLAINTS CAME FROM mostly ONE TURBO MANUFACTURER. EVEN BEFORE THE 1979 MUSTANG. SINCE THEN THE COMPANY HAS BEEN BANKRUPT/NAMED CHANGED A FEW TIMES. Same supplier still does some of the larger GVW vehicles with the non gas engines.

The OTHER supplier or turbos has done well on the smaller engines like the 2.7 liter and 3.5 liter engines. Very few Turbo issues.



"Poor turbos never get a break, first had draw through to deal with especially in boats (bad implementation) then the poor sizing issues, now Ford gets it right and electric comes in to blow it out of the water . Too little too late for turbos .
"

It will be a while before Electric is dominant. Calif is trying to make that happen though. I worked on ELECTRIC turbos but that never really took off.
Electric does not need a turbo unless a Hybrid.

Tom V.

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  #29  
Old 08-31-2022, 12:12 PM
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I always get a kick out of the "magic carburetor" stories. It's always an uncle or former co-worker with a "secret carburetor" that was "accidentally installed" on their car. Having the government/dealer/big oil confiscate the carburetor adds to the BS factor.
Basic physics say there isn't enough energy in gasoline and not enough mechanical efficiency in a 1960's production engine to get 60-200 mpg.

Speaking of a humorous MPG story*...
Two Sun Electric engineers teamed up to compete in one of those fuel economy contests that the oil companies ran in the 60's or 70's. They ran a Corvette. They narrowly missed finishing first. Being engineers they calculated the cause of their narrow loss was because of the extra weight of a celebratory 12 pack of beer they stowed on the car.

*For you historians, I could not find details on past contestants, so I believe this was a local event and not one of the well-known nationwide contests.

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  #30  
Old 08-31-2022, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by turbo69bird View Post
Yeah no doubt that’s a bad day waiting to happen,. Save .53 cents on fuel but destroy your engine when it drops into a cyl. Or bends. Valve .
But it does meet the intent, since a blown engine obviously uses no fuel.....

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  #31  
Old 08-31-2022, 02:15 PM
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There was also a "pill" that could be added to a tank filled with tap water that changed it into a combustible liquid. Same results, it was bought out by big business and never seen again.

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  #32  
Old 08-31-2022, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
Biggest change in F.E. occurred with lower numerical axle ratios and more gears in the transmissions. Example: GM/Ford's efforts to produce a viable transmission with strength, and 7, 8, or 10 speeds.

Corvettes: 10 Speeds, F-150 Trucks: 10 speeds, a few still have 7 speeds or 6 speeds.

Turn the engine slower, you get fewer Combustion events (less Power Pulses), use less fuel, and have less wear on the engines.

So many, many years ago when there were Transmissions with Over Drive, the fuel consumed was less in over-drive mode.

History ALWAYS has Lessons IF you are Willing to Listen.

Tom V.
Yup, GM built Overdrive automatic transmissions during WW2. only took the Cafe standards 33 years later to get them into cars .

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  #33  
Old 08-31-2022, 02:47 PM
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Just noticed today that the California power authority is warning citizens NOT to charge their EVs because it might overload the grid during the heatwave ... BWAHAHAHA

They said to expect rolling blackout etcs. Soon someone will be selling devices to plug into your outlet that will ... "REDUCE POWER USAGE BY 80% !!" ... but I'm sure it will be confiscated

For a while I got a very steady 17-18 mpg in my GTO (2.93 rear, auto) when I installed a quite small Holley 4 bbl, think it was 450 cfm. Ran wonderfully up to about 4000 rpm, throttle response was instantaneous ... but the horrifying lean miss above about 4000 rpm was hard to live with ... hard to believe it didn't melt something.

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Old 08-31-2022, 03:23 PM
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I experimented with carter afbs,holly spread bore,square bore and a 70 qjet. In my backyard testing back in early 70s the qjet was the overall better carb for street some street racing.
Dont hook up to grid get a bicycle either as a transportation or to power a generator to charge your electric car. I know !

  #35  
Old 08-31-2022, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdHank View Post
There was also a "pill" that could be added to a tank filled with tap water that changed it into a combustible liquid. Same results, it was bought out by big business and never seen again.
Probably was made by the same company that guarantees enlargement of specific tools. Bought out for peanuts.

Tom V.

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  #36  
Old 08-31-2022, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by FirebirdHank View Post
There was also a "pill" that could be added to a tank filled with tap water that changed it into a combustible liquid. Same results, it was bought out by big business and never seen again.
Seems like I remember that one from a Beverly Hillbillies episode! Jethro with his "sixth grade education", created the Bodine gasoline pill. It didn't work out so well in the Olds Jalopy.

  #37  
Old 08-31-2022, 04:17 PM
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I remember years ago, on the 73 Formula I used to own (it was previously my brothers, and I gave it back to him), we did some fiddling with the carb;
If I recall correctly, something was jammed on it, and the thing would start and idle fine, but didn't accelerate so well...

Any-who, for a spell it did manage stellar mileage...
I think it was running incredibly lean.

I agree with anyone who suggests that internal combustion needs gasoline, and that there is no "magic bullet";
But running lean will be close - possibly at the detriment of engine life.

Maybe that Ford Galaxie 500 mentioned by GT182 (post #20) had a carburetor, and it was brought in because Ford realized that the carb probably had an issue;
Better for Ford to have adjusted or repaired the carb than to be on the hook for another engine!

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  #38  
Old 08-31-2022, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mgarblik View Post
Seems like I remember that one from a Beverly Hillbillies episode! Jethro with his "sixth grade education", created the Bodine gasoline pill. It didn't work out so well in the Olds Jalopy.
I remember a show about "fuel efficiency" on Room 222. IIRC, they were running slant 6 Darts.

  #39  
Old 08-31-2022, 06:18 PM
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I'm not sure how much I trust the instantaneous mpg figures on the DIC, but according to that my Solstice GXP gets better mileage at 55-60 mph in 4th gear than it does in 5th. It's only 2-3 mph difference but, it is showing a difference.

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  #40  
Old 08-31-2022, 06:21 PM
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I call the DIC the "lie-o-meter"
LOL

Seriously though, I think it's more about finding that sweet spot on the revs so that the engine isn't lugging...
My Cobalt (same engine) has shown to lug easily if in fifth at a reasonable speed..

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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior
A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car.
Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left.


1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing)
2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)
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