[markpj23]

Kewl engine... not mine but thought it was significant for you Pontiac buffs...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...7754&rd=1&rd=1

[Jack Gifford]

Thanks for the 'heads up'.
That's a puzzling engine. Heads look like '58 (vacuum-bleed holes to each intake valve guide) and intake looks like '58 F.I., but block is '59 or '60 (early rear pattern but mounts on sides). And what year is that timing cover and water pump, which pumps directly into the block instead of into the heads?

[Ollie]

Originally Posted by pontiac jack

Thanks for the 'heads up'.
That's a puzzling engine. Heads look like '58 (vacuum-bleed holes to each intake valve guide) and intake looks like '58 F.I., but block is '59 or '60 (early rear pattern but mounts on sides). And what year is that timing cover and water pump, which pumps directly into the block instead of into the heads?

The Water pump and timing cover appear correct for the early 60's when Pontiac deleated the head flow design and converted to the side mounts. The timing cover is cast iron because that was the front engine mount.
The water pump is about 6 to 8 inches in diam with a four bolt mounting. I belive to was also inter-changable with MOPAR.
If you notice the pipe nipple sticking out of the intake manifold and the hole just below it in the timing cover. The hole in the timing cover should also have a short nipple,then there was a short piece of hose connecting the two, that was the water bypass.

[BVR421]

the fuel injection cover looks like it takes a 57 style oil bath air cleaner
I had a 58 unit on mine for a while in the early 60s and my foggy memory says it looked different
time to bid, its only at 810$, the last 57-58 FI I saw for sale was at $6000 for the FI alone.

[Bill Hanlon]

Interesting that it has a dual chamber (for vacuum wipers) fuel pump. There is no generator mount outside of the driver's side head like a 59 or 60 would have. There is some kind of threaded areas on the top front of the intake that do not look like a standard '58 generator mount would fit, but I don't know how the generator mounted to a '58 fuelie. The front of the intake manifold looks nothing like the drawing of the '58 fuelie manifold in the MPC.

[Jack Gifford]

I doubt it's a '57 unit- I've read that the '57 units looked like prototypes, with fabricated steel intake runners. Unfortunately, I've never seen a '57, and can't remember the '58 I saw back around 1959- just remember how 'hidden' the guts were by just opening the hood.

[Bill Hanlon]

I asked Rick Gonser (a pretty knowledgable guy on early Pontiac V8s) to look at this eBay item. These are his comments.

Observations:

This is a ’58 engine, not a ’57. Note valve covers with lopped off corners and stack extension

Rat roaster FI unit cover is definitely pre-prod, the actual 1958 unit is much cleaner…

Pictures of the FI set-up show the cast aluminum plenum. The 1957 unit was welded from steel…

Dist is the two-piece 1957 item a ‘la 1957 ‘Vette. You can actually loosen the pinch clamp above the FI cable drive and rotate the dist body for timing adjustments. Chevy/Delco eliminated that for 58-up FIs…

Also note bellhousing does not have the “small” Buick transmission bearing retainer orifice. Instead, it has the large hole for 1958-up GM manual transmissions with the “large” bearing retainer. This is the housing that everyone is always looking for, so they can use a 4-speed behind their early engine…

There are some things missing/wrong. Don’t see the coil bracket, for instance. Also don’t see the exhausts, be willing to be they were the ultra-rare T395A units…

[GTOJONS]

Here is a pic of a 57 Bonneville convert unit.

[Jack Gifford]

Good info from Rick Gonser. But he said '58 engine- which I agree with, except the block isn't '58, as it has side mounts. Block must be '59 or '60.

[Bill Hanlon]

Final bid was $4050. It won't be going into MY truck.

[Charlie Jones]

I wish I'd had money to burn, I probably would have bid on it too!
In the late seventies I had two '58 Pontiac fuelie units that I had found at swap meets. Only one unit had the all important distributor included. Neither one had the "turkey roaster" shroud covering. I was planning a build up of a 421 with these.
To make a long story short, a friend of a friend that I met at Iola, waved $400 in my face and they were gone with him to be used on his '57 Safari. I have regretted this sale ever since.
The unit pictured is definately a '58 unit. This is also backed up by the illustrations in the parts catalog from Pontiac Safari.com. All the distributors had the clamp in the middle as the bottom was fixed from rotating by a small dowel pin on the dist. mounting surface ( to provide exact alignment for the drive cable).
the block checks out to be a 1960 389 according to a chart on Taufert.net. I couldn't find any info on the heads but the sequence of the casting numbers would indicate that these were '58 heads. As a side note the master parts catalog lists '58 FI heads as a different part number than the carb engines, although I can't imagine what was different about them.
The fact that this engine had come from the "skonkworks" of Pontiac R&D probably suggests that it was built up from a hodgepodge of pieces that were lying around just to see what a fuel injected 389 was capable of. My guess is, that with the right cam and everything, it was probably in excess of 400 HP !

[Charlie Jones]

This discussion of early Rochester fuel injected Pontiacs has me curious.
I know that '58 fuelie UNITS actually exist (having had two of them myself at one time). But, were or are there actually any fuel injected '58 Pontiac CARS ?
The reason I ask this is this. After doing some on-line reaserch on the subject. I discovered one article that stated that "While Pontiac planned for production, and listed fuel injection as an option. According to sales records, no fuel injected cars were actually built." Another source said that "Few (if any) cars were built with this option" and that "...because ..the price was over $500." And,''...that for less than $100 a Tri-Power option was available..."
Could it be that the cast aluminum '58 fuelie units that we see popping up for sale now and then were all ordered over the parts counter at dealerships? I'm willing to bet that there are more '57 "fuelie" Corvettes existing right now than were ever built in 1957, because of this very reason.
I'd like to hear from anyone who knows about (or has or had) a factory fuel injected '58 Pontiac. Pictures would be a real plus!

[Jack Gifford]

That's a good question.
Around 1960, a buddy of mine test-drove a '58 FI Pontiac at a used-car dealership in Buffalo, NY. He couldn't afford to buy it, but raved to me about how it ran. Neither of us questioned, back then, that it was anything other than all-original.
John Gunnell's Pontiac book has a footnote for the '58 production totals- "Note 1: Pontiac experts believe that 200 Bonnevilles carried the optional fuel-injection V-8". But then under engine descriptions, he says that the FI engine was "$500 on any Pontiac model". Also, it's interesting that the FI engine made 20 HP less (310 vs. 330) than the NASCAR Tri-Power engine that year.

[Charlie Jones]

One of these just turned up on E-Bay #190225527340 . Nice car, bidding is over $20,000.

[bonnevillejoe*]

Hi, I have 2 58 Bonneville fuel injected hardtop cars. I had a 58 FI convertible, but sold it about 4 years ago. All 57 Bonnevilles were fuel injected and they made 630 of them. You could not get fuel injection on any other 57 Pontiac. In 58 fuel injection became an option and you could get them on any body style. They made a total of 500 58 Pontiacs with fuel injection, but only 64 Bonnevilles. They made 91 Pontiacs with fuel injection and air condition but only 11 were Bonnevilles. I have all this documented fron GM.

[Pontirag]

welcome abord and thanks for the education.