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#1
02-12-2004, 08:08 PM
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Just got back from dyno testing at KRE. We have been preparing a 455 test engine for several months to test KRE's new aluminum 85cc "D" port heads. I assembled a 455 engine using an Eagle crank, H beam steel rods, Ross pistons, Crower 60919 cam, 1.65 rockers, Torker II intake, Demon 850 carb, 1 3/4" Hedman headers. The engine produced 502.4 hp @ 5300rpm and 560.7 tq @ 4500rpm. Average hp/tq from 3600rpm to 5500rpm was 532.9tq/459.4hp. The engine was making 543.9tq and 372.8hp at the beginning of the pull (3600rpm). Not bad for a pump gas engine that has 13.7" of vacuum at 1000rpm, hardly a hint of lope at idle!
Two summers ago we prepared a very similiar engine using 87cc Edelbrock heads (unported). Although the KRE "D" ports were not designed to compete against the E heads, it gave us a good baseline and reference numbers to shoot for. The nearly identical E head engine made 504hp @ 5000rpm and 551.7tq @ 4500rpm. Average power from 3600-5500rpm was 526.8 tq and 455.1 hp. At the beginning of the pull (3600rpm) power was 506 tq and 337.2 hp. I was really surprised at the results. The KRE heads have a very small opening at the intake flange, just a tad smaller than a std gasket, just under an inch wide and just over 2" tall. I really didn't think the small crossection would allow for big power numbers at high rpm. Matter of fact, the KRE heads made peak power 300rpm higher than the E heads AND were making 37.9 more tq and 35.6 hp at at the beginning of the pulls (3600rpm)......Cliff
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
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#2
02-12-2004, 08:08 PM
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Just got back from dyno testing at KRE. We have been preparing a 455 test engine for several months to test KRE's new aluminum 85cc "D" port heads. I assembled a 455 engine using an Eagle crank, H beam steel rods, Ross pistons, Crower 60919 cam, 1.65 rockers, Torker II intake, Demon 850 carb, 1 3/4" Hedman headers. The engine produced 502.4 hp @ 5300rpm and 560.7 tq @ 4500rpm. Average hp/tq from 3600rpm to 5500rpm was 532.9tq/459.4hp. The engine was making 543.9tq and 372.8hp at the beginning of the pull (3600rpm). Not bad for a pump gas engine that has 13.7" of vacuum at 1000rpm, hardly a hint of lope at idle!
Two summers ago we prepared a very similiar engine using 87cc Edelbrock heads (unported). Although the KRE "D" ports were not designed to compete against the E heads, it gave us a good baseline and reference numbers to shoot for. The nearly identical E head engine made 504hp @ 5000rpm and 551.7tq @ 4500rpm. Average power from 3600-5500rpm was 526.8 tq and 455.1 hp. At the beginning of the pull (3600rpm) power was 506 tq and 337.2 hp. I was really surprised at the results. The KRE heads have a very small opening at the intake flange, just a tad smaller than a std gasket, just under an inch wide and just over 2" tall. I really didn't think the small crossection would allow for big power numbers at high rpm. Matter of fact, the KRE heads made peak power 300rpm higher than the E heads AND were making 37.9 more tq and 35.6 hp at at the beginning of the pulls (3600rpm)......Cliff
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
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#3
02-12-2004, 08:13 PM
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AWESOME CLIFF
 74 Grandville 4860# 14.26@ 96.74 mph
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Darby 74 Grandville 2Dr 455 c.i 4550# 2011 1.60 60 ft,7.33@94.55-11.502@117.74  2017, 74 firebird -3600 lbs (all bests) 1.33 60 ft, 6.314@108.39 9.950@134.32 M/T 275/60 ET SS Drag Radial 2023,(Pontiac 505) 1.27 60 ft, 5.97@112.86, 9.48@139.31.... 275/60 Radial Pro's |
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#4
02-12-2004, 08:34 PM
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Great!!!....is KRE ready to ship?
1973 SD455 T/A 1979 SE474 T/A http://community.webshots.com/album/16587603rOyvmFCiHs
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Home of WFO Hyperformance Shaker induction. |
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#5
02-12-2004, 08:44 PM
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KRE has already shipped several sets of the new heads in both 65cc and 85cc versions. I don't really know how many sets of heads they currently have available? Jeff did mention that they have more to pick up at the foundry next week. I can tell you that the entire time I was there the CNC machine ran non stop and they were getting castings ready for assembly.....Cliff
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
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#6
02-12-2004, 08:56 PM
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Cliff,
Nice, I should've stuck around down there today to see it. How did the Edelbrock head flow numbers on the first engine compare to the KRE D-port numbers on this 455? Got any runner CC numbers for them? Was pretty amazing visited KRE 3 weeks ago and there was like 50 sets of alum D-ports lined up at the CNC mill. Today I think there was six! -Rob |
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#7
02-12-2004, 09:02 PM
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Rob, I don't know the exact specifics for the E heads we tested, but they were "out of the box" unported. I did do a custom seat/valve job on them with my own equipment, no porting, grinding or "clean-up" anywhere.
I haven't cc'd a KRE head yet but pretty sure Jeff mentioned they are 14cc smaller than the E heads, but this may not be accurate as I have a bad case of CRS these days. I'm pretty sure our 85cc KRE heads flowed 268 cfm.....Cliff
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
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#8
02-12-2004, 09:08 PM
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Cliff, correct me if I am wrong but I thought we measured 185 CC port volume on the protoype KRE head. Aren't the Edlebrocks typically 217 cc or so untouched?
Tom Tom Hand
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Tom Hand |
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#9
02-12-2004, 10:17 PM
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Ive got to talk to my brother and get him to buy a set for his 400. Those small intake ports and good flow would make for a killer 400 head.
75bird 7.41 1/8mile at 92mph street car 73Ventura 11.88 at 113 streetcar 69GrandPrix 12.64 at 107 tow car 65GTO 10.14 at 129 tri-power dragcar |
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#10
02-12-2004, 10:45 PM
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Another thing that's interesting to compare is the header tube diameter. Was probably 1 7/8 on the E-heads?, pretty neat if the KRE's pushed the same HP through smaller pipes!
Like I said in the dyno room a ways back, what if the D-port KRE is better than the round port Edelbrock? -Rob |
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#11
02-13-2004, 04:54 AM
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Tom, you would know better than I do and your numbers are probably pretty close. I'm not much of a number cruncher for cylinder heads. I have a BAD case of CRS these days and my "hardrive" is full! Ask me something about a q-jet, I'll probably know the answer! The Edelbrock heads have much larger openings at the flange and noticable more volume in the runners. I really learned a LOT yesterday about heads and power. We were able to squeeze out more power over a broader rpm range AND make peak hp at a higher rpm with a much SMALLER intake port. I actually had bets that the tiny less than 2 square inch openings in the KRE heads would fall WAY short on peak power. Guess I'll be buying lunch next time I go to KRE!
Rob, correct, our E head 455 used 1 7/8" headers, the KRE test engine used Hedman 67-69 FB headers, 1 3/4" pipes.....Cliff
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
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#12
02-13-2004, 08:02 AM
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Based on Cliff's info, the "stock" port dimension
aluminum Tri-Power intake may be an outstanding piece for the KRE heads. Maybe we can get Cliff and KRE to run a dyno test on the intake when it goes on the market. Tom V. 
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"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward. |
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#13
02-13-2004, 08:07 AM
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Cliff, those numbers are great. But, why the dual pattern cam? Was it to get a comparison to your ealier dyno run with the E-heads? It would seem with the E/I flow ratios of the KRE D-ports approaching 90%, wouldn't a single pattern cam be a better choice? I'm seriously considering getting a set for by 400, I'm currently running Crocie's HC01A cam, curious on your thoughts single vs. dual pattern with KRE heads. What about my current cam with the KRE heads - it's pretty close to the Crower cam you have posted data about in the past. -- Brian
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#14
02-13-2004, 10:54 AM
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The KREs made HP at a HIGHER rpm than the "big" E head port. Not what all the theory that has been thrown around with D's vs E heads. I guess the KREs are actually closer to RAIVs if they are 185cc. Both motors had HP around 5000-5300 so mainly low rpm.
Better swirl chambers would let them make more HP with a smaller port but shouldn't change to rpm peak higher.That is supposed to be based on the port cc or other formulas that use the sq. in of the port window(volume just rocks the torque curve around that point) kind of like header primary length vs primary size does. It shows KRE designed a really good head for more high hp Pontiacs, and that theory is just not always right in the "real" world.
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Skip Fix 1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever! 1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand 1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project 2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4 1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project 1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs |
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#15
02-13-2004, 12:41 PM
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Will KRE have some of those heads on display at Virginia Motorsports Park in May?
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#16
02-13-2004, 01:50 PM
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It is likely they will, since they're giving away a pair.
Cliff's dyno numbers show what many don't get, and that is, the port that produces the highest velocity while still being able to provide the cfm needed for the CID and RPM range of the engine, will always produce the most power. 
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Just a blind squirrel looking for a nut. |
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#17
02-13-2004, 02:09 PM
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Better swirl and higher velocity can make the same hp as a bigger port and they did. I was just commenting on the fact the bigger port did NOT have to use higher rpm to get the same HP and torque as the smaller port and that an E head 455 with a RAIV type cam has a hp peak at 5000, not a high rpm motor as many have suggested with BIG ports.
When you start talking velocity in ports I think that can be a difficult thing to quantitate. Where do you take measurments especially with portrs that have a slightly different shape? Average the entire port, just the highest areas? I would think having the highest overall velocity would give the best filling over using max numbers might, not give overall velocity average that is better for the whole port. Just because a port is smaller doesn't mean it has better overall velocity either. KRE obvious did their homework, good job Jeff and crew!
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Skip Fix 1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever! 1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand 1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project 2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4 1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project 1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs |
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#18
02-13-2004, 02:56 PM
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Can't wait to see the numbers on a 462 with a street roller and 1-7/8" exhaust, something with a little higher intended rpm range. I think the numbers could be surprising.
And it will be interesting to see where the runner intake volume might end up for the portwork to produce 300-310 cfm.
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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 ) Old information here: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/ Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine) 5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE |
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#19
02-13-2004, 03:22 PM
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These heads sound fantastic!!! How much do they cost?
Tim C 65 LeMans, 3550lb. D-ports and a flat tappet cam, 10.90@121
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Tim Corcoran |
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#20
02-13-2004, 04:30 PM
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All I can say is I will have a major anouncment March 1st! I will also have pics. This has been hush, hush with me and a major manufacturer for almost a year now. It has been hard for me to keep my big mouth shut! But I can open it March 1st!!!!
 Be Cool, http://pacificperformanceracing.com ACE-P.P.R.
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Am I glad I got out of the business I was in? HELL YEAH!!! |
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