[Anastasiofan92]

Hey guys, this is my first post here on Performance Years, but I've been reading the boards for a while. I've got a 78 Firebird Formula and over the past couple of years I've been piecing together a Pontiac 400 Build to replace the Olds 350 that the previous owner installed.

I've tried to follow the Pontiac 400 "formula" for success, but I want to get as many concerns, tips, opinions and any other remarks before I begin assembly. This is my first ever engine build, and I want to make sure everything is going to work. I've followed the advice of a Pontiac Builder, but I'd like to settle my worries and concerns about my cam choice, compression ratio and reliability.

If anyone can get me details from my engine to calculate my compression ratio, I'd appreciate it (I can get the piston dish specs tomorrow). Again this is my first ever engine build so I'm pretty new, but I read a lot online, I own the Jim Hand book and have an abstract understanding of how the engine goes together but no hands on experience.

My Goals with the Engine:
Pure Streetability, Once in a blue moon drag strip visits (never actually dragged any car before), Lots of reliability, No stall converter

Block: '557, 1977 W72
Heads: #62
Crank: Stock Cast Crank
Rods: Forged I Beam Speed Pro
Pistons: Forged Speed Pro
Bearings: Speed Pro
Cam: Comp Cams XE262
Lifters: Hydraulic Speed Pro
Intake: 1971 Stock Cast Iron
Windage Tray: Tomahawk (PPR)
Valley pan: Tomahawk (PPR)
Oil Pump: Melling
Rocker Arms: Scorpion 1.65
Air Cleaner: Stock 400 Single Snorkle
Valves: Ferrea F5143 and F5144
Carburetor: 704426 Quadrajet
Gasket Set: Victor Reinz
Timing Set: Liberty Performance Double Roller
Piston Rings: Hastings
Transmission: TH350, Torque Converter Specs Unknown

Miscellaneous Part Numbers From Machine Shop Receipt

- Milodon 84287
- Comp 994-16
- Comp 4851-8
- Comp 611-16
- Comp 740-16


Parts Left to Get:

Pushrods: I was told to get the 9.130 length, Any Recommendations on Brand/Part Number?
Bolt Kit: Stainless 6 Point ARP
Distributor
PCV Valve/Grommet
Oil Filter
Valve Covers

Machine Work Details:

Block:
Bored .060
One Cylinder Sleeved
Crank Ground .020/.020

Heads:
2 Valve "Jobs"
Exhaust Seats Installed
Guides Installed
Milled .007

Springs Etc:
Outer 90 @(?) 1.630 --- The ? is because I couldn't read his handwriting
Inner 40 @ 1.530
Coil Bend (?) .550
Valve Closed 130@1.630
Valve Open 300@1.130
.620 Max Lift

Pistons:
Dished to achieve pump gas friend compression ratio, Specific CC's unknown

All internally balanced

Information I don't have:

Rear End Ratio
Torque Converter


If there's any other information that you'd like to see, I'll see what I can dig up. If you want pictures, I've got plenty of those too, just specify what you'd like to see.

[Matt Meaney]

get any other 400 block.

crower 60242 cam (degree it) and appropiate valve springs.

kb/icon forged flat tops zero decked.

clearence push rod holes in heads.

tight 2500 torque convertor

3.23 - 3.42 gear.

cliff's recipe 2 in the q-jet.

hei sent to suntuned to be calibrated to combo.

[Tim Corcoran]

In order to compute your compression accurately you will need to know the following.
1. Size of cylinder head combustion chambers measured in cubic centimeters (cc's).
2. Size in cc's of your valve reliefs and your dish on top of your pistons.
3. How far your pistons will be in the hole unless you plan to zero deck the block.
4. Bore size.
5. Thickness of your head gasket.

As far as your cylinder heads, if your seat pressure is 130lbs that may be a bit on the high side for a hydraulic flat tappet cam. It looks like your coil bind is good with that cam if it is .550 as noted. I don't understand why you say max lift .650 and coil bind is .550, but if the coil bind id truely .550 and your lift is .462/.469 @1.5 then even using 1.65 rockers you should be good.

[grivera]

Welcome to the forum! I wish I would have come here for advice before starting my build; which by the way doesn't sound too different from yours.

I strongly recommend you get this book by Rocky Rotella, it explains in detail how to rebuild a Pontiac V8:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1613...pt#reader-link

Regarding the pushrods, you should get a pushrod length checking tool similar to this before buying them: http://www.jegs.com/i/Comp-Cams/249/...oductId=753211

Based on your parts list, make sure the oil pump is the 60lb rather than the 80lb

[Anastasiofan92]

Originally Posted by grivera

Welcome to the forum! I wish I would have come here for advice before starting my build; which by the way doesn't sound too different from yours.

I strongly recommend you get this book by Rocky Rotella, it explains in detail how to rebuild a Pontiac V8:

Thanks for the welcome. I appreciate the input also. The oil pump is a 60 lb Melling.

I've already got the Jim Hand book which I feel is more than ample to explain my project thoroughly, but I could probably benefit some by owning the new book too.

Thanks for the link to the tool on Jegs, I appreciate it. I think it's all going to work well. It seems to be a tried and true combination that puts out the street manners and drivability I want. I don't intend to drag the car at all seriously, if at all. I realize that throwing those heads on creates an issue of compression, but hopefully the dish of the piston should amply compensate.

I'll email my guy and get the actual dish figure when I remember too haha. Based on looking at a picture "Suntuned" estimated that the dish looks like I 'should' be in a reasonable compression ratio which in turn should work well with this cam. I really need to get the actual figure though.

Tim Corcoran:

The gasket set is all Victor Reinz stock replacement if that tells you what the head gasket size is. I'm not doing any more machining to the block. We began assembly today actually. We checked the clearances, installed the bearings and the crank, as well as the rear main seal. The piston rings have been installed also. That's as far as we could get since I drove back to Fayetteville today for work/college.

The Heads are 72CC #62's. The Valves I listed are Ferrea F5143 and F5144. Valve work has been done as well as exhaust seats installed. The bore is .060, but we don't have the length between the top of the piston and the block. I assume that my machinist has already checked this and made sure that I'm within spec with the use of my heads/pistons/block height. I'll get the figure once I can, but it might be a few months haha.

The distributor is going to be built by Suntuned, since he lives in town and from what I hear is really good. He's also going to rebuild my Qjet.

[grivera]

Originally Posted by Anastasiofan92

The Heads are 72CC #62's.

Did you have the heads CC'd or just going by research? I ask because 62's are commonly known to CC higher (75-78) when in virgin form. Mine came in at 75 CC's.

[Tim Corcoran]

Personally I would never play a guessing game on things like compression ratio. After all the money I spend on putting a new engine together I would need to know what I got. If your compression comes in too high your engine could be very short lived. If it comes in too low you will be very disappointed in the performance. But as long as you know what your dealing with it's your money. Good luck and I hope your engine build is a success and runs great.

[dmac]

choose Ram air style exhaust over headers for a 400. Reliability, fit, durability, quieter, control under hood temps better

[PunchT37]

If the pushrod holes in the heads were not opened up for the 1.65 rockers, either do it or ditch the 1.65`s for Harland Sharp 1.5`s. Hopefully the machine shop cut the tops of the valve down for PC seals? Retainer to guide clearance? Better check all that, not just coil bind.

[Anastasiofan92]

I plan on purchasing the Ram Air Restoration D Port manifolds/headers and running them to a 2.5" Pypes X over transverse system with factory splitters

I didn't find anywhere on my receipt about the block being zero decked. So I'm guessing for now, without being able to check myself, that the block hasn't been touched other than having been bored/honed. The heads have been milled .007, so with 72 CC heads, a piston dish that has been estimated around 11-20cc (eyeball figure based on numbers from Grivera and another forum member), victor reinz gasket set, .060 over etc, what kind of compression am I looking at, and is it safe? I've done the compression calculator on my own, but I'm not sure I'm doing it right.

Also, I was recommended running the Rotella 15W40 oil in this. Any opinions?

Planning on running the stock air cleaner setup, with complete stock pcv setup. Does anyone here have good pictures/descriptions on this setup? I have a restoration manual for my 78, but the information here is kind of cloudy. I've got the autotherm air cleaner, and I want it to function properly with the 71 intake and 74 quadrajet I have.

Thanks for the help guys, I really appreciate it.

Kevin

[Matt Meaney]

no need to zero deck the block with a full dish like that. you would need a 'D' shaped dish to take advantage of the quench provided with a zero deck.

lets ball park some figures for a guess at compression. 75cc head (they're likely not the as advertised 72cc), pistons down .020 in the bore, .041 compressed gasket thickness, .060 over 3.75 stroke. with 11cc dish your looking at about 9.5:1 with a 20cc dish your in the neighborhood of 8.75:1. hopefully it's the later with a small XE cam, but there's no guarantee with either.

the idea of rotella is for zinc content. your best bet is brad penn oil. use their break in oil, then the regular oil after that. if you choose a rotella or similar, it would be best to put in a zinc additive. just to be safe.

[Anastasiofan92]

I'll be sure to grab a bottle of zddp. Thanks for the help Matt. I'm checking out this calculator here http://www.wallaceracing.com/cr_test2.php

What do you put for gasket bore diameter?
I'm putting .002 for the deck height also.

[Matt Meaney]

Originally Posted by Anastasiofan92

I'll be sure to grab a bottle of zddp. Thanks for the help Matt. I'm checking out this calculator here http://www.wallaceracing.com/cr_test2.php

What do you put for gasket bore diameter?
I'm putting .002 for the deck height also.

i used the calculator on classical pontiac. http://www.classicalpontiac.com/ it doesn't require gasket diameter. can't do a direct link. at the very top of the page click on restore and then compression claculator if you want to try it.

if the block was never decked, it's unlikely that the piston is only .002 from zero deck. the "same" piston made by different manufactures will have a slightly different pin height. this will directly affect where the piston sits in the bore. from memory, and it could be worng, trw/speed pro's are about .020, KB/icon about .010, and those crappy cast about .030-.040.

with todays "gas" it has become more important than ever to have exact measurements as opposed to guessing or going by published numbers. this includes degreeing the camshaft on install and verifing the zero mark on the chosen harm damper. these parameters play a critical role in calibrating the carb and dist. once the basic engine is done the carb and dist will be the difference between a great running engine and alot of dissapointment.

if you haven't already, might want to search for a thead on blueprinting the melling oil pump. might be fine right out of the box, but if it's not...

[Anastasiofan92]

What harmonic dampener do you guys recommend? I have the stock one lying around, but with all this money spent so far, I don't want something that may not work properly.

I'm planning on having Suntuned rebuild my quadrajet and distributor based on my combination, so hopefully that means I can get a better timed and tuned engine off the start.

I've read about degreeing in the cam several times, but I feel like I have just a basic understanding of what you're doing. What's the difference between lining up the dots and finding tdc and "degreeing"?

[grivera]

Originally Posted by Anastasiofan92

I plan on purchasing the Ram Air Restoration D Port manifolds/headers and running them to a 2.5" Pypes X over transverse system with factory splitters

I didn't find anywhere on my receipt about the block being zero decked. So I'm guessing for now, without being able to check myself, that the block hasn't been touched other than having been bored/honed. The heads have been milled .007, so with 72 CC heads, a piston dish that has been estimated around 11-20cc (eyeball figure based on numbers from Grivera and another forum member), victor reinz gasket set, .060 over etc, what kind of compression am I looking at, and is it safe? I've done the compression calculator on my own, but I'm not sure I'm doing it right.

Also, I was recommended running the Rotella 15W40 oil in this. Any opinions?

Planning on running the stock air cleaner setup, with complete stock pcv setup. Does anyone here have good pictures/descriptions on this setup? I have a restoration manual for my 78, but the information here is kind of cloudy. I've got the autotherm air cleaner, and I want it to function properly with the 71 intake and 74 quadrajet I have.

Thanks for the help guys, I really appreciate it.

Kevin

I'm not sure what the Victor Reinz head gaskets bore size is; I used the Felpro size of 4.3". Regarding the deck height, I estimated .020 (20 thousandths) in the hole. Are you able to tell if the deck has been resurfaced? Some factory blocks will have number stamps next to the bores which I believe coincide with piston sizes. I'm not sure if the 557 blocks had these but my 69 and 73 block both did. If those stampings are clearly visible it would be a good indicator the deck was not resurfaced.

[Anastasiofan92]

I really don't have any pictures of the top of the block. I'll ask my guy to check and see.


If it helps here's a picture of the dish.

[FrankieT/A]

I would recommend a deep sump oil pan like a canton or milodon for the extra oil capacity, it will help your engine run a little cooler. It's your oil that takes the heat away from main and rod bearings. The canton fits perfect with any starter/exhaust combo.

[jonmachota78]

Originally Posted by Anastasiofan92

Block: '557, 1977 W72

I thought the w72's did NOT use the 557 blocks. If your block is in fact a w72 then u should have the stronger block. Worth checking out!

[Anastasiofan92]

Just ordered my valve covers, oil fill cap, pcv grommet, vent tube, vent tube connector,vent tube valve cover grommet, air cleaner lid seal and air cleaner to quadrajet gasket.

I'll report back on the quality of all these items as soon as I get them from APE.

I called my machine shop and left a voice mail inquiring about whether zero decking is standard operating procedure and if he recalls zero decking my 400. We'll see. I'm betting I'll have to wait to find out when I install the rods/pistons...

If it means anything he needed my rings and bearings when he did the machine work.

[74Grandville]

Originally Posted by jonmachota78

I thought the w72's did NOT use the 557 blocks. If your block is in fact a w72 then u should have the stronger block. Worth checking out!

only 78 and 79. those are the XX blocks