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Old 09-18-2020, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
Paul also has newer designed lobes that Harold was working on before he passed, that as far as I'm aware, no one else has.
Howards purchased Harold's newest lobes - howardscams.com

  #42  
Old 09-18-2020, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by pastry_chef View Post
Howards purchased Harold's newest lobes - howardscams.com
I would have to talk to Paul about that to confirm, because from what I was told, knowing Paul and Jeff were both very tight with Harold, that Harold sent everything he was working on that no other cam company had, to Paul and Jeff, and Jeff was learning from Harold how to read his latest designs right up until he passed. So as far as I know, unless Paul and Jeff decided to sell those designs, there is no one else that has this stuff. If you want Harolds latest and greatest, it'll come from Koerner Racing.

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Old 09-18-2020, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
I would have to talk to Paul about that to confirm, because from what I was told, knowing Paul and Jeff were both very tight with Harold, that Harold sent everything he was working on that no other cam company had, to Paul and Jeff, and Jeff was learning from Harold how to read his latest designs right up until he passed. So as far as I know, unless Paul and Jeff decided to sell those designs, there is no one else that has this stuff. If you want Harolds latest and greatest, it'll come from Koerner Racing.
Does Koerner Racing. do its own cam grinding?

Stan

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Old 09-18-2020, 07:48 PM
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The last designs Harold did were for Custom Camshaft Company, these were acquired by Howards. Howards has since ground cams for many long-time referred customers of Harolds, he was close to many.

Purchasing a cam series / masters does not come cheap, 40 to 50 K generally. If there was any truth to Koerner having some exclusivity you better believe it would have been mentioned by Paul on here. Yet he was promoting getting cams done through Lunati.

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Old 09-18-2020, 07:49 PM
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Does Koerner Racing. do its own cam grinding?

Stan
No, they use Lunati, which is basically part of Comp now I believe. Don't remember who he talks to specifically.

I have to talk to Paul about another engine I'm doing so I'll ask to be 100% certain but I'm willing to bet the designs that Howards has is not the latest from Harold, but probably something he was working on prior. Since Jeff was flying back and forth across the country to meet with Harold to obtain and learn these lobe designs right up until he passed, I doubt this personal stuff is common knowledge with the rest of the cam Industry.

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Old 09-18-2020, 08:16 PM
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That is why I brought up the QXI hydraulic roller lobes.

Look at the lobe lift for #13450 and #13451.
Compare it the the Old Faithful. With similar .050 duration.

https://www.compcams.com/lobe-catalog

.

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Last edited by Steve C.; 09-18-2020 at 08:21 PM.
  #47  
Old 09-18-2020, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
No, they use Lunati, which is basically part of Comp now I believe. Don't remember who he talks to specifically.

I have to talk to Paul about another engine I'm doing so I'll ask to be 100% certain but I'm willing to bet the designs that Howards has is not the latest from Harold, but probably something he was working on prior. Since Jeff was flying back and forth across the country to meet with Harold to obtain and learn these lobe designs right up until he passed, I doubt this personal stuff is common knowledge with the rest of the cam Industry.
Based on my understanding from what you just said. I take it that Harold was taking Jeff through the actual lobe design process. Does Jeff have Harold's software and can he design new lobes?

Stan

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  #48  
Old 09-18-2020, 08:30 PM
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For a time Mike was the contact at Howards, who also worked with CCC. Referred by:
Quote:
From my 37 plus years of racing experience ...the camshaft is the MOST important part of any motor ....it can do anything you need it to if you have the right person design it....again in my experience ...HAROLD BROOKSHIRE is the best cam designer in country hands down ....he owned ultra dyne camshafts for years....I won two nascar national championships and 23 races in two seasons with his cams ...zero before his cams in 10 years trying with only 5 wins ...with the same basic engine package all that time because of the rules just the wrong cam.

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Old 09-18-2020, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Stan Weiss View Post
Based on my understanding from what you just said. I take it that Harold was taking Jeff through the actual lobe design process. Does Jeff have Harold's software and can he design new lobes?

Stan
Yep that's how I understand it.

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  #50  
Old 09-19-2020, 04:12 AM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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Old Faithful intake lobe
Comp lobe 3122B:
289
236
160
.3800"
0.570" lift
( I've seen .3810" lobe lift stated but never confirmed with an actual cam card)

Comp QXI lobe 13451:
289
237
158
.3950"
0.593" lift

Harold Brookshire Design lobe number HR2353683 listed at Howards cams:
288
235
158
.3680"
0.552" lift

All similar, but more going on than can be evaluated just by looking at those numbers. Example the opening closing rates on each lobe design.
And would there be a significant difference in a dyno test between these lobes when matched up with the same exhaust lobe and with the same lobe separation.

"If you want to build a street motor with the most power without a sacrifice of idle and low speed qualities, then lift is the most important factor to maximize, not duration. The best suited cams are those that seek to maximize lift while only adding a minimal amount of duration."
David Vizard


The most important cam design parameters are the four timing events or equivalently the advance, intake and exhaust duration and lobe separation angle.
Once the four timing parameters are established, the cam should be designed for maximum lift.
A quick opening and closing cam will provide better low end performance than one that is slower opening.
Tilden Technologies

( Information provided in this post does not represent any endorsement. And unless specified it is not based on personal experience and is offered for general interest only )
.

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Old information here:
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5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE

Last edited by Steve C.; 09-19-2020 at 04:31 AM.
  #51  
Old 09-19-2020, 12:11 PM
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I agree Steve,

For hyd and solid flat tappets Harold's designs are extremely hard to beat. Solid rollers are awesome as well!
The hydraulic rollers have less max lift than some other designs, I think due to inverse radius design. For many applications more peak lift is a definite advantage, provided good valve stability.

Many put WAY too much emphasis on cam duration @ .050 values.
I like to look at everything across the valve lift and area curves. I'm very fortunate to have resources that "give me eyes" to see those targets. If I couldn't purchase a tool I built my own, in turn even greater vision. No surprise to me the OF cam works great for many, curve and area aligns nearly every dot in those applications. I've seen 1 or 2 max effort applications that surprised me.. for example a Chevy 383 running more than 1 inch valve lift and making 840 HP.


Last edited by pastry_chef; 09-19-2020 at 12:16 PM.
  #52  
Old 09-19-2020, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pastry_chef View Post
I agree Steve,

For hyd and solid flat tappets Harold's designs are extremely hard to beat. Solid rollers are awesome as well!
The hydraulic rollers have less max lift than some other designs, I think due to inverse radius design. For many applications more peak lift is a definite advantage, provided good valve stability.

Many put WAY too much emphasis on cam duration @ .050 values.
I like to look at everything across the valve lift and area curves. I'm very fortunate to have resources that "give me eyes" to see those targets. If I couldn't purchase a tool I built my own, in turn even greater vision. No surprise to me the OF cam works great for many, curve and area aligns nearly every dot in those applications. I've seen 1 or 2 max effort applications that surprised me.. for example a Chevy 383 running more than 1 inch valve lift and making 840 HP.
Back in the late'60s I had a SBC Engle solid cam with the same 0.050" duration as the Chevy 30 30 solid cam. The Chevy cam had the lash at 0.030" and the Engle was I 0.012" E 0.014" The engine at the valve saw a world of difference.

Stan
Stan

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  #53  
Old 09-19-2020, 02:50 PM
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Two interesting tid bits from Harold Brookshire. The second one posted by Jay Stukenholtx within another Pontiac forum in a related discussion. Note Harold's last comments there.

I no longer have the original computer that designed the original VooDoo cams in 2004-2005. Holley kept that, and it was not returned to Lunati.
However, I have designed some fill-in cams for Lunati, and what I call my 'post-VooDoo' cams, that have proven very successful since 2006.
I call these 'post-VooDoo' because I do not remember the*exact*numbers I used in the ramp designs.
However, the 'seat' durations were chosen by the marketing division of Holley.
We did dyno-test all hydraulic VooDoos against their equivalent Xtreme Energy counterparts.
At 2500, where the tests were started, all VooDoos made more torque than the Xtreme Energy cams. One would think that more bottom-end torque meant a shorter duration,*WHERE IT COUNTS!!!!.
Here are some numbers from my work of the past 3 years.
Hydraulic Intensity (.004" to .050")---53.88 degrees.
The opening side of the Hydraulic Intensity---45 degree equivalent.
The intensity from .006" to .050"---46.00 degrees.
The opening side of .006" to .050"---41.00 degrees.
Remember, the engine sees not ONE number as the duration of the cam, but instead*ALL*numbers on the cam.
The numbers govern how the cylinder fills with clean air/gas, and on the exhaust, how it gets the old exhaust out.
They work together to produce their results.
Just because 2 cams agree at either .006", or .050", does not mean they flow the same amount of air, or make the same torque or BHP.

UDHarold
2009

Both Harvey and I design Unsymmetrical cams, where the opening side and the closing side are different everywhere except at the nose, where we match both sides through the 3rd derivative, at least. We both use different off-sets, the difference between the opening and closing sides, even at .050".
My old 288R that I designed in April, 1980, thought it was a 282 at .020 when it opened, a 252 at .050. Then it knew it was a 258 at .050 when it closed, and 294 at .020, still closing. The 288R was notorious for bottom-end torque, and good power everywhere. It had 176 at .200, one degree more than the Crane R260/4167.
What I use now is the R255416H. This rascal thinks it is a 279 at .020 when it opens, still a 252 at .050, still a 258 when closing, and now a 288 at .020. At .200, 180 degrees. I've lost 5 degrees at .020, kept the same duration at .050, and gained 4 at.200. It has gained power everywhere.

Remember, it is not WHAT the duration is, but WHERE the duration is, that counts in camshafts. Remember, the engine sees WHERE the duration occurs, not WHAT the duration is.

UDHarold



.

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Last edited by Steve C.; 09-19-2020 at 03:02 PM.
  #54  
Old 06-22-2021, 06:17 PM
64gp4spd 64gp4spd is offline
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Update I ended up using the OF Cam ground on 112 LSA with 1.65 rockers.
Motor is 463ci 11:1 compression with Kauffman 310CFM Heads. Runs Great!
I will be pulling the 4:10 gears out and swapping in 3:64

One question,
I was using 100 Octane when I first got it running and then tried 93 but
now getting some pinging at light throttle. 10 Degrees initial timing and
30 total. I have the vacuum advance hooked to full vacuum at the Holley
Carb, 950HP Street. Should it be on the ported vacuum source instead?

Thanks, Rich

  #55  
Old 06-22-2021, 06:35 PM
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Auto or stick?

If auto, what stall?

Any time at the track?

  #56  
Old 06-22-2021, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 64gp4spd View Post
Update I ended up using the OF Cam ground on 112 LSA with 1.65 rockers.
Motor is 463ci 11:1 compression with Kauffman 310CFM Heads. Runs Great!
I will be pulling the 4:10 gears out and swapping in 3:64

One question,
I was using 100 Octane when I first got it running and then tried 93 but
now getting some pinging at light throttle. 10 Degrees initial timing and
30 total. I have the vacuum advance hooked to full vacuum at the Holley
Carb, 950HP Street. Should it be on the ported vacuum source instead?

Thanks, Rich
At what ICL did you install the cam?

Stan

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  #57  
Old 06-22-2021, 09:35 PM
64gp4spd 64gp4spd is offline
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Ponjon, 4 Speed Manual, Super T10, No Track time yet

Stan, Installed at 108-109

  #58  
Old 06-22-2021, 09:55 PM
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Pinging at light throttle is most likely caused by the vacuum advance. Especially since your initial and total numbers are very conservative.
You didn't mention how much timing the vacuum advance is bringing in but on a combo like yours I wouldn't want to see more than 10-12 or so and wouldn't think anymore than that is needed.

You'll probably have to dive into the vacuum advance and modify the slot to limit it's travel.

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Old 06-22-2021, 10:20 PM
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It might get worse with 3.64s if you don't make some change.Tom

  #60  
Old 06-23-2021, 10:09 AM
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On a similar motor with OF2 cam and 11.3:1 compression , my best ET is with total mechanical advance at about 28 degrees, around 800-1,000 ft elevation. Vacuum advance connected to ported Vacuum, and disconnected when racing. Vacuum advance adds about 12 degrees at cruise speed.

I have run 91 to 93 pump gas and never a hint of pinging, although I will experience some dieseling on shut down when running anything less than 93 octane from the local BP. Advance at idle about 10 degrees.

Disconnect your Vacuum advance for a test drive to see of the light throttle pinging comes back.

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