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Old 02-21-2020, 06:22 AM
64gp4spd 64gp4spd is offline
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Default What Hydraulic Roller Cam in 467

I know there have been many posts on here regarding what Hydraulic Roller Cam to use. Old Faithful, Stump Puller ETC.

My car is 1964 Pontiac Grand Prix 4 speed manual, 4.10 gears ( Probably switching to 3.64 )
Motor will be 467 CI KRE 310CFM Heads, 11:1 Compression
Torker 2 with 950HP 1 inch spacer.
Will be using Long Branch Manifolds instead of
4 tube headers so I'm sure this will affect cam choice
Overlap etc.

Thanks, Rich

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Old 02-21-2020, 08:16 AM
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Cliff R Cliff R is offline
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I would go no smaller than the OF grind and install it at 109-110ICL. Same basic combo I have, mine is closer to 11.3 to 1 compression and using the OF cam on a 112LSA. It's been flawless now since 2009 on a steady diet of pump gas, even runs OK on 87 octane w/o pinging but it will "run-on" once in a while on a really hot summer day fully heat soaked so I typically keep 91-93 octane in it. The ICL came in at 109.5 so I just left it there and glad I did. Idles nearly dead smooth with just a hint or "attitude". Makes 13.5" vacuum at 700rpm's with only 10 degrees initial timing.

Compression is your friend with these things and allows for bigger cams with less negatives. However a small cam and high compression can get you into trouble in a hurry and little cams aren't going to take advantage of 310cfm head flow either......FWIW......Cliff

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Old 02-21-2020, 10:23 AM
78w72 78w72 is offline
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x2 on the OF in my 467 e-head 10:7 motor. runs great on the street on pump gas & does consistent low 11's. great cam.

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Old 02-21-2020, 10:56 AM
"QUICK-SILVER" "QUICK-SILVER" is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 78w72 View Post
x2 on the OF in my 467 e-head 10:7 motor. runs great on the street on pump gas & does consistent low 11's. great cam.
Stick shift car or automatic?

The OP didn't really say if the cam needed to be stop 'n' go traffic friendly. Just 4 speed with a possible rear gear swap.

Clay

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Old 02-21-2020, 11:03 AM
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The last 467 I recently built I went with a custom ground camshaft from Paul using voodoo lobes that is very close to Old Faithful specs. 239/243 @ .050 and a pinch over .600 lift and on a 112 LSA. I installed it at a 106.25 ICL. Engine is 9.98:1 compression with iron heads. Dyno'd with 91 pump gas.

Stock intake, carb, and exhaust manifolds and it made 507/571 on the dyno and idles with only a slight attitude and makes 13 inches of vacuum up here at 5,000 feet elevation. Car has working AC and is an automatic with a custom converter through Cliff that drives fantastic. Easily a daily driven car if one wanted to, behaves nicely.

I'd lean on what others said, with an engine this size I really wouldn't even look at a camshaft any smaller than 230's @ .050 intake duration. The 455's gobble that up like it's not even there. I don't even consider a cam rambunctious in these engines until you start getting up closer to 250 @ .050.


Last edited by Formulajones; 02-21-2020 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 02-21-2020, 11:16 AM
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My thoughts mirror the other guys thoughts on cam size. But rather than compcams we are using “3823” hyd roller profiles from Bullet. I believe they are basically Ultradyne profiles converted to computerize profiles. I think the smallest one is 236 @.050 and the largest ones are 260s as .050 and they all have .3823 lobe lift. Makes for a range of .573-.631 for lift depending on the rocker arm ratio.

FWIW, I like the lift range, and I like the way the 3823 cams are designed for the lash ramp coming off the base circle. A kind of example of the difference between the design like a comp Magnum HR and the Bullets is running a solid roller hybrid on one of the Magnums, to quiet the noise down most guys lash them to .005-.008. Compared to the Bullet is .008-.011. It is a difference in how the profile comes off the base circle. The XE and XE FI are more aggressive yet. Not trying to bash a compcam or Old faithful what so ever. The comps like the OF are great cams. Imo, if you are running plenty of compression, on pump gas, on the street, that slower ramp won’t hurt you at all. Plus to lift as shut the valve a little slower will likely make it little quieter, maybe even more dependable.


Last edited by Jay S; 02-21-2020 at 11:20 AM. Reason: Edit
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Old 02-21-2020, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay S View Post
My thoughts mirror the other guys thoughts on cam size. But rather than compcams we are using 3823 hyd roller profiles from Bullet. I believe they are basically Ultradyne profiles converted to computerize profiles. I think the smallest one is 236 @.050 and the largest ones are 260s as .050 and they all have .3823 lobe lift. Makes for a range of .573-.631 for lift depending on the rocker arm ratio.

FWIW, I like the lift range, and I like the way the 3823 cams are designed for the lash ramp coming off the base circle. A kind of example of the difference between the design like a comp Magnum HR and the Bullets is running a solid roller hybrid on one of the Magnums, to quiet the noise down most guys lash them to .005-.008. Compared to the Bullet is .008-.011. It is a difference in how the profile comes off the base circle. The XE and XE FI are more aggressive. Not trying to bash a compcam or Old faithful what so ever. The comps like the OF are great cams. Imo, if you are running as much compression, on pump gas on the street, that slower ramp wont hurt you at all to lift the valve a little slower and it will likely be a little quieter, maybe even more dependable. A lot of stress in that first part of the profile.
That would likely be the older Harold designed Ultradyne lobes that Bullitt is using. The cam I used is basically Harold's newer design voodoo lobes that Paul Carter has access to. Likely a lot of the same features.

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Old 02-21-2020, 11:26 AM
78w72 78w72 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER" View Post
Stick shift car or automatic?

The OP didn't really say if the cam needed to be stop 'n' go traffic friendly. Just 4 speed with a possible rear gear swap.

Clay
my car is an auto with 3.23 gears & does great in stop & go traffic & all city & highway driving. in a bigger cube engine like a 467, the OF cam is very docile & idles like a much smaller cam.

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Old 02-21-2020, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
That would likely be the older Harold designed Ultradyne lobes that Bullitt is using. The cam I used is basically Harold's newer design voodoo lobes that Paul Carter has access to. Likely a lot of the same features.
I think that is correct. IRC there are some changes to the profile that occurred when Bullet transferred the designs to their software. But they are based from a design Harold did. I would not be surprise if the profile in your engine was similar in the way it came off the base circle. Harold seemed to design that part of the profile pretty consistently, his later designs like the voodoos seemed to have more duration at and above .2”.


Last edited by Jay S; 02-21-2020 at 11:41 AM. Reason: Edit
  #10  
Old 02-21-2020, 12:02 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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Three similar hydraulic roller intake lobes....

Comp Magnum High Lift #3122B (Old Faithful)
289
236
160
.3800"
0.570"

UltraDyne #HR12
288
234
155
.3533"
0.530"

Comp QXI #13451
289
237
158
.3950"
0.593"

The QXI Series lobe profiles are designed to provide the highest available valve lift for modern cylinder head ports, along with excellent stability and the broadest possible power range in hydraulic roller applications.


.

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Old 02-21-2020, 01:04 PM
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To reinforce what Cliff says keep in mind that in motors like the 455 who's stroke is bigger then it's Bore, cylinder pressure will rise much faster then a over square motor and on pump gas you need to bleed that off with the Cam.

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Old 02-21-2020, 01:24 PM
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I forgot to add Comp XE lobe 3196
288
236
162
.3900"
0.585"

This is the intake lobe Dave Bisschop uses on his revised Old Faithful cam (OF2).

However Dave apparently orders it with a "B" suffix code after the lobe number as he does on the older OF cam. By doing so the duration can vary slightly by 1-2 degrees. And the lobe lift increases by 0.001".

Keep in mind a 2-valve ported cylinder head responds to valve lift without a sacrifice of idle and low speed qualities. Bottom line, the engine wants all the lift it can and thrives on it so run as much as mechanically achievable or unless prohibitive because of cost limitations.


.

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Old information here:
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Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
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Old 02-21-2020, 01:33 PM
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Only when the Intake tract as a whole can provide increasing air flow levels when adding more valve lift, in regards to your last paragraph.

Other wise once port velocity drops off too low from porting the head and increasing the heads minimum port area Torque output levels at low speed will fall off a cliff!

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And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs!
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Old 02-21-2020, 01:40 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve25 View Post
Only when the Intake tract as a whole can provide increasing air flow levels when adding more valve lift, in regards to your last paragraph.

Other wise once port velocity drops off too low from porting the head and increasing the heads minimum port area Torque output levels at low speed will fall off a cliff!

OK. But note the OP will be using ported KRE heads that flow well above .600" lift and have less intake runner volume than a similar ported Edelbrock head.


.

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Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
  #15  
Old 02-21-2020, 02:03 PM
pokey1 pokey1 is offline
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I have been using this cam with 1.65 rockers in my 467. Been happy so far.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf cam.pdf (198.8 KB, 184 views)

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1967 GTO, 467 roller motor, e heads ported, tremec T56 magnum 6 speed and
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Old 02-21-2020, 04:16 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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head flow vs cam lift?

https://www.yellowbullet.com/threads...m-lift.394221/

Cam lift vs. cylinder head flow

http://nastyz28.com/threads/cam-lift...ad-flow.37265/


.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
  #17  
Old 02-21-2020, 07:52 PM
64gp4spd 64gp4spd is offline
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Thank You for all the suggestions. The car will be 95% street driven with occasional trip to the track.
I like all the characteristics mentioned about the OF cam.
I had a Crower 255/261 @.050 with 108LSA Solid Cam in a 421 that was in the car previously
Ran great but had a lot of overlap and as a result always smelled like exhaust fumes after
driving it.
Thanks Again for the input

Rich

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Old 02-22-2020, 03:20 AM
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You will love the cam. The street manners will surprise you once you get the tune dialed in. You can lull your passengers to sleep or scare the living crap out of them! Best of both worlds!

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Old 02-22-2020, 07:45 AM
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Both of those links have great info Stevo, but they don't touch on the big plus of having good swirl rates at low rpms and low flow rates.

This contributes greatly to combustion efficiency at any rpm, but especially to Torque numbers made at low rpms and air to fuel ratio numbers.

And yes, if the op is running ported Kaufman D port heads then he will be better off for his needs then starting off with Edelbrock round port heads.

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Old 02-22-2020, 10:30 AM
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243/251 voodoo

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