[zippy]

Last time I did an engine swap in my bird, I pulled the subframe and installed all on it then rolled back into car. Not really the room in my new shop for that. Tranny is still in car, car is in storage outside shop right now. Just wondering if anyone has tricks installing a 455 in a TA with headers on? Can it be done, or drop headers down first then just fight the bolts when engine in place and mated to tranny? It's a TH400 as well if that makes a difference.

[25stevem]

You’ll not get the motor in with the headers dangling off it.

Put drop cloths or blankets on the wheel wells to protect things and tie the headers off to frame with twine.

[bhill86]

X2 ^^^^

[Formulabruce]

X333 /\/\/\/\/\

[Sirrotica]

There is no Pontiac Stratostreak V8 that can be dropped into a stock chassis with long tube headers attached that I'm aware of, and I've worked on a lot of different Pontiac cars with headers.

To start with the Pontiac engine is very wide from exhaust flange surface to exhaust flange surface. It has a wide, and deep oil pan, and the exhaust exits at a 45 degree angle from the cylinder heads, all eats up a lot of under hood real estate.

It's no SBC dimensionally, and that is probably the only GM engine that may be able to be installed with long tube headers, and even having a small oil pan sump and being much narrower than a Pontiac, it still may not fit all applications.

Side by side comparison shows what I'm speaking about:





Those cylinder heads really make your butt look big........

[bhill86]

Wow, I never realized what a difference in size there was between a poncho and SBC. no question about it!

[Scott Roberts]

Originally Posted by bhill86

Wow, I never realized what a difference in size there was between a poncho and SBC. no question about it!

Yeah, the difference in Inches is the difference between and ooohhh and and awwww.. lol

[Don 79 TA]

Originally Posted by bhill86

Wow, I never realized what a difference in size there was between a poncho and SBC. no question about it!

totally agree

[sdbob]

My 2nd with SD and either Hooker or Jr s has to be installed separately.

[Skip Fix]

You can lay them in first.

[72projectbird]

You wont be getting them in with the engine install. There's no easy way around it. You cant install them loose, you can't install just one, it ain't happening. You can lay them in the engine bay before installing the engine, but imo it's not worth it. You'll probably end up fighting to get the motor mounts lined up, and headers sitting in the frame only add to the aggravation.

Getting headers into an F-Body after the engine is installed isnt bad. They usually slide right in. Getting the bolts in is an entirely different story lol

[78w72]

why fight with headers attached to the engine or laid in place first? the correct/best way to install pontiac headers according to every manufacturer is to do it from underneath the car after the engine is in, so much easier that way IMO.

i have installed, removed & reinstalled headers a bunch of times on many different 2nd gens with no real trouble at all, especially after youve done it once or twice. the instructions that come with new headers say to jack the front & rear of the car up, i go as high as possible with a standard 3 ton jack & jack stands, about 18-22" or so, then with a helper up top just guide them up & hang off the center bolt like its designed. jacking the engine up a few inches helps & removing the oil filter housing too... but its not hard at all, can get to most the bolts up top with a wrench if you use small head header bolts, the other few can be done from underneath while its still jacked up with a long extension & ratchet. ive done cheap 3 tubes, hooker competition, hedman 28150 (which are great fitting headers for the best price out there) & most recently big 2" hooker super comps... 3 or 4 times! with a helper up top to guide them into place it took all of about 1 hour for both sides working slow & easy, no fighting, cussing or throwing wrenches.

also never had leaking gaskets using the stock supplied hedman paper gaskets or the standard steel core graphite type gasket from mr gasket or hooker.

[Sirrotica]

It isn't a pleasant job to put Pontiac headers on, but most people on this board shy away from it like it was next to impossible, and avoid them like the plague. Then they complain about blown exhaust gaskets.

As many as I've put on, I've found a few tricks that help a whole bunch. Swivel sockets, bent wrenches for the center bolts, and silicone RTV on the cheap gaskets.

I have a set of Hooker SC, D ports that I put on a second gen in 1988, never leaked, and one retorque of the bolts after the initial install. I used the OEM Hooker gaskets, and red RTV. The headers will probably rust through, before the gaskets leak. High temp RTV is the stuff that will keep the gaskets from blowing in my experiences. Before I started using RTV I had more than my share of blown gaskets, after I started using it, zero blown gaskets.

I also had a set of Hooker SC round port headers on the HO heads on my 73 T/A. Those wouldn't allow you to R&R the stock starter without loosening them first, and of course the oil filter change wasn't particularly easy either.

Even with all the drawbacks, I've never entertained the idea of using cast manifolds on my cars, except on one of my dirt track cars that headers were illegal per the rules, that car got RA III manifolds. They were a big improvement over log manifolds with open exhaust.

Also installed plenty of 3 tube headers, that are good , but not as good as 4 tube, but they do fit easier than 4 tubes.....

BTW, if you think Pontiac headers are a pain, put a set of MOPAR headers on that you have to remove the steering linkage, and put it back through the tubes once they're on the car, gives you a whole new perspective on Pontiac headers.......

[Tim Corcoran]

More than one way to skin a cat, or a knuckle. Pontiac headers aren't that tuff just patience and some basic mechanical skills. Most leaks on headers are due to poorly made headers, in the area of where the tubes are welded to the flange. You can grind, file the weld flush with the flange and braze on the tube side to add some extra material if needed. It is a lot of work but you won't need to put goop all over the place to get them to seal if you do this first before you try to install them. Install the engine then remove to bolt on the motor mount on one side then jack up that side of the motor this will give you additional room to slide the header in from the bottom and make it easier to install the bolts to the head. After one side is done lower the engine put the motor mount bolt in and repeat on the other side. Of course you will leave the trans just sitting on the mount without bolting it up so you can jack the engine side to side.

[Old Goat Racer]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

There is no Pontiac Stratostreak V8 that can be dropped into a stock chassis with long tube headers attached that I'm aware of, and I've worked on a lot of different Pontiac cars with headers.

To start with the Pontiac engine is very wide from exhaust flange surface to exhaust flange surface. It has a wide, and deep oil pan, and the exhaust exits at a 45 degree angle from the cylinder heads, all eats up a lot of under hood real estate.

It's no SBC dimensionally, and that is probably the only GM engine that may be able to be installed with long tube headers, and even having a small oil pan sump and being much narrower than a Pontiac, it still may not fit all applications.

Side by side comparison shows what I'm speaking about:





Those cylinder heads really make your butt look big........

WOW ! I've never had a "mouse" in my garage, unless it had 4 legs and a tail and it never escaped alive . SO. which motor is going into the 55 chebby ?

[1965gp]

You aren’t BS’ing about headers on a mopar. I was ready to set fire to my 69 Charger!

[Sirrotica]

LMAO, "Goop all over the place".

Obviously you have no idea of how to use RTV to seal exhaust systems.

It's not used to replace poorly made parts, or parts that are damaged. It is an adhesive that seals the gaskets to both surfaces to keep them from blowing out, nothing more. 34 years on the same car says it works as described. If the surface isn't flat to begin with, no gasket, or RTV is going to seal it. The flange needs to be in good shape no matter what you're using to seal it, that is imperative.

The RTV manufacturers list it as a sealant for exhaust systems, as do the top tier header manufacturers describe using it in their installation instructions.

Installation instructions from Sanderson header manufacturer:

Apply a ~1/8" wide "smear" of Permatex® #82180 Ultra Black® Silicone (or compatible) that isn't too thick around each exhaust port on the header. Allow the silicone to set overnight. or until completely dry.

Picture of how to apply RTV:



Sanderson doesn't even recommend, gaskets, just RTV........

If done per instructions, there won't be "Goop all over the place".
RTV is also able to expand, and shrink with the metal expansion and contraction during heat cycles, while keeping a seal.

The first time I knew of someone sealing an exhaust system was a diesel mechanic using it on the hot, pressure side of a turbocharger. If it can seal a turbo with all that pressure, it has no problem sealing a naturally aspirated exhaust system. I have also successfully used it on the crossover pipe gasket on my 6.5 turbo diesel., been on there at least 10 years at this point.

RTV gets a bad rap many times, in many applications, when most of the time it's the person using it improperly that is to blame. I worked at a Buick dealership in the early, to mid 80s, GM used virtually no gaskets in their engines in that time frame, just red, high temp RTV, called GMS, (General Motors Sealer), so I found out what works with RTV, and what doesn't.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Old Goat Racer

WOW ! I've never had a "mouse" in my garage, unless it had 4 legs and a tail and it never escaped alive . SO. which motor is going into the 55 chebby ?

That isn't my garage, the picture came from H.A.M.B. so I have no idea of whose garage it is, or what engine went in what car......

Years ago, when I was a teenager, it was a popular swap to put Pontiac engines in tri five chevys. Hurst even made a swap kit for it.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by 1965gp

You aren’t BS’ing about headers on a mopar. I was ready to set fire to my 69 Charger!

I feel your pain, been there done that in a 67 Satellite. Probably much more time consuming than any header install I've ever done, and I've done a bunch of them over the years.

Back in the late 70s I quoted the owner $50 to install headers, labor rate at the time was $12 per hour. I lost my butt on that quote, but learned my lesson about MOPAR header installs. Most times 4 hours covered my labor, not that time.