#21  
Old 08-09-2022, 08:37 AM
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I'd also add that if you are using a 9 keyway set make sure that each time you move to a new keyway you will need to go up to the tooth above the keyway then count two back to the left for a new reference point to line up with the "dot" on the cam gear.

I've seen some very experienced engine "builders" screw that deal all up and move to a new lower keyway then end up using the wrong mark on the lower sprocket to line up with the dot on the upper one.

Early versions of the Rollmaster were NOT marked and you had to use a magic or paint market to keep yourself honest. Degreeing a cam is a big enough of a PITA right to start with without additional confusion caused by the parts you are trying to use......FWIW.......

As for those 3 keyway variety I tried messing with them a few times and when I moved to the 4 degree advance or retard positions they weren't even close to where I wanted to be so I gave up on them. In contrast the Rollmaster 9 keyway sets and dead nuts on the money for moving the cam, if you are at 110ICL and move to the 4 degree advanced keyway you are going to be right at 106ICL when you set things back up to check it.........

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Old 08-09-2022, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Cliff R View Post
"What do you recommend? I thought those 9 key crank sprockets were terribly unreliable."

The Rollmaster 9 keyway set is DEAD NUTS on the money for moving the cam and on the upper end for quality with roller type timing sets. Those 3 keyway sets not so much. They are usually pretty close dot to dot at the "zero" keyway, but after that they can be all over the map for where you end up at from what I've seen here.

I've installed a number of Rollmaster sets in customers engines, they seem to be at the top of the pile and marketed by all the big Pontiac shops and used my most Pontiac engine "builders" from what I've seen.

For my engines I use the factory 3/4" wide stock Morse timing sets and offset cam keys if I need to move the cam.......

Well a walk through the archives to read up on Timing Chain has left my head spinning.

Mr Gasket is the only one that seems to still make crank keys anymore but only for (2) or (4) deg at the rank thus 4 or 8 at the cam. Didn't find any that were 1 deg.

Morse chains are on ebay but not the gears. And the non adjustable gearsets do no good if you cant find offset woodruff keys to use.

Sounds like double rollers stretch like crazy
Not sure if True rollers have the same issue.

Still trying to learn about chain types. There is a lot of terminology to sift through.

Many of the gear sets I looked at are unavailable.

With all that said I will just plane to set my own chain to strait up. Re-degree it and see where I end up.

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Old 08-09-2022, 02:41 PM
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Melling replacement 3/4" wide sets are readily available. They will have cast iron gears, not steel. The last set I bought still had a USA made Morse chain.

All timing chains stretch, fact of life with those parts. Double roller sets do not offer constant tooth contact nor are they a "smooth" drive design. Taunted as "high performance" parts nothing could be further from the truth. Most of the "low" end sets aren't that great and even the upper end sets aren't as strong as the Morse type.

The good news is that few of these vehicles are used for daily transporation nor will they see very many miles put on them so you'll probably be fine with whatever you end up using........

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Old 08-09-2022, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary H View Post
I have found that variations in measurements when degreeing a camshaft is primarily caused by the dial indicator not being "square" or " parallel " with the valve, or not having a flat surface to place the dial indicator stem tip on the valve retainer. Those two items can cause issues trying to get an accurate, repeatable measurement. Regarding the +4. Most cam manufacturers are adding 4 degrees advance in when grinding the cam. It will generally say that on the cam card by stating the cam grind number followed by +4. Lastly, if you use the +4 keyway and marks on the timing gear, it should advance the cam 4 degrees. Naturally, it needs to be verified by degreeing the camshaft in.
I need to circle back to a previous question about if this cam has built in advance? If its on the cam card I'm not seeing it.
If it does, what is the purpose of built in advance and how does it related to degreeing the cam?

As for the other post. All great information on the math and double checking the degreeing process. I'm learning lot.



I would have no issue buying a Mellings cam but I wouldn't have any way to adjust it. And as with life my best option is also the most expensive. It does look like a nice chain and I know its the one that the Simms unit is based off.
https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...timing%2Bchain


Given all that If my mearsurent is correct at 111.5
and if I move the crank sprocket to the strait up
I will be at 107.5 and thus just 1.5 deg off the mark
To me this seem more ideal as long as I don't get into a detonation issue.

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Old 08-10-2022, 07:16 AM
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Here is the down and dirty on timing sets from what I've learned actually doing to this of thing for a while. If this information has a few folks on here get their panties all wadded up, which it usually does, that is not my intension here.

My mentor from back in the 1970's taught me well. He was one of the smartest guys I ever knew when it came to these things, a very successful engine builder and drag racer campaining a super quick SA 1968 Camaro. He swapped back and forth between a 396 and 454 but it's been half a century ago and I don't remember all the details on how quick the car was. I just know that he had next to zero issues with it aside from caving in a couple of 396 blocks do to thin cylinder walls.

Anyhow, I'm right out of High School, wet behind the ears and doing all the dump chit everyone else was doing, like removing excellent factory intakes, carbs, distributors, camshafts and such and bolting on crap that just burned your eyes when you stood behind the car in the High School parking lot and sucked down twice as much fuel! I also did the Crane Fireball cam crap, and cheap Zoom double roller timing set combined with (another dumb move) high volume/high pressure oil pumps. Those cams never worked any better than if as good as what I replaced but man did the car sound good out the back with the "menacing" idle quality!

Anyhow, I get hooked up with Gary who was a chemist by night at a chemical factory of some sort and ran a high performance automotive shop by day to make money to campaign his race car.

So I'm watching and learning, and the first time he removed the 396 from his race car he pulls the timing cover off and low and behold there is a factory type Speed Pro Morse chain timing set with a PLASTIC coated top gear! He carefully removes it to use on the replacement 396. I'm shocked. Then he removes a stock low pressure standard volume oil pump to use again.

I questioned both parts and he said that the high volume/high pressure pump isn't needed even for his over 7000rpm shift points and just cost the engine about 10hp on the dyno, the KEY to success was in the short block set-up and clearances. He also told me that the "link belt" chain and plastic coated sprocket was FASTER at the track and made more power than anything else. It "smoothed" out the pulsations between the crank and camshaft and showed less spark scatter and more high RPM power than any other timing set he'd tested.......hum?

Now I just didn't run tight out to my car and pull the engine and remove the $19.95 double roller timing set and high volume/pressure pump I had in them, but I kept a mental recored of everything he said and learned from it.

From that point on all my engines got stock pumps and stock timing sets, although I never used the plastic coated top gear version and Gary even recommended that I use steel or cast iron top gear sets for long term street use. He said that the 3/4" wide version will EASILY outlast the rest of the engine.

So I stuck to that deal until 1999 when I built my first 455. Since the engine "package" I bought came with a Rollmaster timing set I decided to use it. It looked like a decent part, and I loved the ability to move the cam around without the Mopar offset keys I'd been using.

Well that decision turned out to be a bad one and I lost the chain and damned near lunched the engine 4 years later! Now keep in mind that in those 4 years I was running the car at the track at every possible opportunity and driving it almost every day on the street weather permitting. I had just retired (the first time) and was testing all sorts of carbs and such to provide accurate information for my first book and get my carburetor rebuilding business jump-started.

The day the Rollmaster went South I was racing at Dragway 42 about half hour North of here and the car started to really slow down every run. By the 4th run it was off over 2mph and couple of tenths and the idle didn't sound just right. I went ahead and made pass number 5 and it started breaking up really bad at the top end of the track and barely stayed running at idle speed. I "limped" it back to the pits and put the car on the trailer. I thought I'd simply broke a valve spring or bent a pushrod but it turns out I lunched the timing chain when I pulled the engine a couple of days later, something I NEVER expected to see as the culprit.

Yes folks, that's the good one, same one Butler and KRE sells as the top of the line Rollmaster.

I've had two of my customers lunch theirs in similar fashion, but will note that both of them had logged well over 30,000 miles, one actually closer to 50,000 miles before theirs started slapping all over under the cover.

One of those customers was recently and he actually contacted me thinking he was having carburetor issues because his KRE headed roller cammed 455 was idling weird, missing and skipping a bit. He just figured the carb was plugged up some and was thinking about pulling it apart for a good clean-up. I told him to forget about the carb and pull the timing cover instead. He did mention at that time that he was getting a little noise from the front of the engine but nothing dramatic. When he pulled the cover the chain was DONE!

Even with all that there is nothing wrong with the Rollmater or Cloyes "high end" double roller timing sets. Zillions of them are in use and folks for the most part do fine with them. For every story about one failing you'll get 200 folks jump right in and say they've been using one since Moby Dick was a minnow w/o issues and their vehicle still leaps tall buildings in a single bound, walks on water, tucks them in at night and couple of times a week wakes them up and cooks breakfast for them. So for sure the water gets muddies quickly with discussions about some of these parts.

All I can tell anyone reading this is that I deviated from the "plan" ONCE and got singed pretty hard. I went back to using 3/4" wide timing sets and zero issues since. I even had to remove the timing cover from my 455 recently due to a coolant leak and the timing set looked brand new with very little slack in the chain and only "witness" marks on the gears. I had another ready to replace it but put it back on the shelf.

In closing I personally believe that there are a LOT of "substandard" parts in use out there, like many of these roller rocker arms, for example. We don't hear about a lot of issues with them simply because most of these vehicles don't get a lot of miles put on them. Hitting half a dozen car shows a year and a couple of short cruises on a nice Sunday afternoon is NOT going to put these parts to the test or give any of us reliable feedback as to how well they work in long term service. Also many don't completely fail, but simply crack, or even worse are grinding themselfs up very slowly while putting tons of fine metal particles into your engine. Comps roller tip rocker arms come to mind when I type this. Every set I've pulled off used engines had the bodies turned blue or even black where they pivot on the rocker balls and gaulded some with a good amount of metal ground or flaked off into the engine, but NONE had failed completely and any additional lash created by their "break-in" process was made up by the travel in the hydraulic lifters so the owner never heard any clacking from them.

Haven't pulled down a single engine yet that didn't have a BUTT-TON of slack in the roller timing set being used. I even went back thru an ill fated 455 Super Duty engine with less than 200 miles on it and the roller chain in it had too much slack for my liking so i tossed it out. So there's my take on this topic, from actually doing this sort of thing comin up on 50 years now. I'll slowly crawl back under my rock before the stones start flying!...........

PS: below is a pic (sorry not all that great) of a Scorpion Roller Rocker removed from an engine built here while it was in to be "freshened up". 13 out of 15 were cracked but none had failed nor did we have any idea they were a ticking time bomb........


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  #26  
Old 08-10-2022, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by rohrt View Post
I need to circle back to a previous question about if this cam has built in advance? If its on the cam card I'm not seeing it.
If it does, what is the purpose of built in advance and how does it related to degreeing the cam?

As for the other post. All great information on the math and double checking the degreeing process. I'm learning lot.



I would have no issue buying a Mellings cam but I wouldn't have any way to adjust it. And as with life my best option is also the most expensive. It does look like a nice chain and I know its the one that the Simms unit is based off.
https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...timing%2Bchain


Given all that If my mearsurent is correct at 111.5
and if I move the crank sprocket to the strait up
I will be at 107.5 and thus just 1.5 deg off the mark
To me this seem more ideal as long as I don't get into a detonation issue.
The cam card will tell you if the camshaft has advance ground in it. For example if the LSA is 112, look at the ICL on the card. If it says 108 then the cam has 4 degrees of advance ground into the lobes. Theoretically if you just install the cam "straight up" dot to dot, it should have 4 degrees of advance, but that's not always the case. Keyways on cranks and camshafts are not always perfect, the cam is not always ground perfect, the keyways on the sprockets of the timing chain being used are not always perfect. All of these things can amount to "stacked tolerances" and really skew the intake centerline install position. That is why it's always wise to degree the camshaft and check. 9 out of 10 times the cam will not be where you think it should be. It's a time consuming process but it has to be done.

Advancing a little more is not a bad thing. There are a couple schools of thought on that as far as lobe position and detonation. I prefer and have had great success with Paul's method but that's another discussion and I don't know anything about your build.

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Old 08-10-2022, 01:03 PM
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. I prefer and have had great success with Paul's method but that's another discussion and I don't know anything about your build.
Well ya done opened the box now. What is this method about to which you speak of?

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Old 08-10-2022, 01:18 PM
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Long ago, i concluded that "by inspection" the factory chain design was superior to the bicycle double-roller chain, simply due to about double the link contacts upon the pins, for half the load, perhaps half the wear.

Gear wear could be debated; Lower vs Upper for Roller vs Morse.

Modern oils would make the original morse links last better than vintage wear with vintage oils.

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Old 08-10-2022, 01:36 PM
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drilling a .030 hole in drivers side front oil galley plug deposites and drips oil right on the chain right before it mesh's with crank gear as seen through fuel pump timing cover hole during priming of oil system. .. .. this doesnt hurt

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Old 08-10-2022, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by rohrt View Post
Well ya done opened the box now. What is this method about to which you speak of?
LOL

What Paul does with his builds is advance the camshaft until the intake lobe lift is about .035-.040" higher than the exhaust lobe at TDC overlap stroke.

His theory, that I've tried on a few engines now and found it works, is that at TDC overlap when the piston starts down the bore it pulls more on the intake valve this way, which isn't pulling in the super hot gasses "as much" from the exhaust valve and creates a cooler combustion process as the piston comes back up on the compression stroke.

The only issue with this method is that it's tough to get there on really wide lobe separation camshafts. So if you use a cam with 112 or 114 LSA, you likely won't reach those numbers. You can get part of the way there, but not all the way without going to a ridiculous amount of advance.

On the 114 LSA cams I've done for instance, I've gone as far as about 107 ICL install position and found about .025" higher on the intake lobe on TDC overlap stroke. So not quite .035-.040" that Paul shoots for, but better than not at all. I didn't bother to push the ICL any tighter on those camshafts.

In fact as an experiment I did this on my 400 RAIII with iron 12 heads and the 068 cam running 10.13:1 compression and it's been running great on 91 octane for several years on the street and with a lot of track abuse.

This method is a lot easier to obtain on camshafts with 110 LSA or tighter.

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Old 08-12-2022, 01:32 AM
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Somewhere way up above I read something that could confuse you. The cam manufacturer has cut the keyway to give you their desired advance. In a perfect world you would set the timing dot to dot and you would end up at 109. You don't add the additional 4 since the cam company already did.

Now we are a long ways away from perfection and that is why you need to measure. It might be on the money at 109 or advanced or retarded. They did the grunt labor for you and now you just have to fine tune.

Also, because crank pulley keyways and the scarce offset keys are approximately 2 increments, you might only get close to 109. Like horseshoes, sometimes close is all you are going to get. Most of us will error slightly to the advance side since as the chain stretches it will slightly retard timing. Not unusual that your choice ends up being something like 108.5 or 111.5 because 2 in the real world usually comes out to almost 3. Do you choose 2-1/2 degrees advance or only a half degree retarded? Tough call. With a good timing chain I'd probably go the half degree retarded because we only need so much tire smoke and a little better top end might be the correct choice.

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Old 08-12-2022, 03:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulas View Post
drilling a .030 hole in drivers side front oil galley plug deposites and drips oil right on the chain right before it mesh's with crank gear as seen through fuel pump timing cover hole during priming of oil system. .. .. this doesnt hurt
I drilled a .023 hole in the front driver plug, .030 in the rear passenger plug and .030s in all the lifter bores. Restrictors everywhere.

All this timing chain stuff is making me think about getting into the Milodon gear drives and be done with it.
The only chain I could find was a .,004 short Rollermaster from Butler that fit decent. Block has been aligned bored, just kissed the block.
It has the IWIS chain but now I have to worry about it having a short life.
Have a good Morse chain but it was too lose.

  #33  
Old 08-12-2022, 08:21 AM
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Adding .030" holes to spray the distributor gear and timing set is a good idea, IMHO. They stock Melling oil pump delivers over twice the oil the engine will ever need so why not use it to provide positive lubrication to those components.

I also believe, and I'm just throwing this out there that it would be a really good part to add to one of these engines if someone offered a cam chain tensioning device. All of these timing chains stretch out, especially the roller variety and once they start "flopping" around I believe that wear and stretch are greatly accellerated at that point. I say this because when I lost the Rollmaster chain in my first 455 is was fine shortly before the night it failed. In the previous months I had moved the cam 4 times to do some ICL testing and the chain didn't have all that much slop in it, maybe around 1/4 to 5/16". I made a mental note of it, but it wasn't enough slop to be alarming. Looking back on it I think it was on it's was out and had enough slop in it that it was flopping really bad on the coast side accellerating the wear process.

That's all water under the bridge at this point because I went back to a stock type 3/4" wide set with heat treated steel gears. This provided better sleep at night and I went on to worry about other things........
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Old 08-12-2022, 01:08 PM
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Back working on the engine.

pulled the head this time to dial in TDC with the Comp Cams piston stop that come with thier degree kit.. Changed the gearset to strait up. used the ICL method once again.

Previously I had 150 & 73 = 111.5
This time I got 140 & 63 = 102 WTF! I thought the keys on the crank gear were for 4 cam deg. It must be 4 at the crank and 8 at the cam.

I guess this makes up my mind to get the 9 keyway Rollmaster.

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Old 08-12-2022, 01:18 PM
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Back working on the engine.

pulled the head this time to dial in TDC with the Comp Cams piston stop that come with thier degree kit.. Changed the gearset to strait up. used the ICL method once again.

Previously I had 150 & 73 = 111.5
This time I got 140 & 63 = 102 WTF! I thought the keys on the crank gear were for 4 cam deg. It must be 4 at the crank and 8 at the cam.

I guess this makes up my mind to get the 9 keyway Rollmaster.
LOL you have a 3 keyway crank gear don't you....

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Old 08-12-2022, 01:32 PM
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All right this is interesting. Just for a sanity check I changed the gearset to the Advanced setting (A) on the crank sprocket and ran the numbers again.
Dialed in at 106.5.

So to recap the three settings on the crank sprocket get me (R)111.5, (0)102 and (A)106.5 when trying to dial in @ 109.

Thats just far enough off the mark to upset a person.

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Old 08-12-2022, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rohrt View Post
All right this is interesting. Just for a sanity check I changed the gearset to the Advanced setting (A) on the crank sprocket and ran the numbers again.
Dialed in at 106.5.

So to recap the three settings on the crank sprocket get me (R)111.5, (0)102 and (A)106.5 when trying to dial in @ 109.

Thats just far enough off the mark to upset a person.
What's the LSA of the cam?

What is the intake lobe lift vs exhaust lobe lift at TDC overlap stroke?

What brand camshaft is it?

If this is something like a 112 LSA cam (I suspect) I'd be inclined to leave it at 106.5 and run it. It will have a better intake/exhaust ratio at TDC overlap and eventually lose a degree or two over time anyway.

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Old 08-12-2022, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
What's the LSA of the cam?

What is the intake lobe lift vs exhaust lobe lift at TDC overlap stroke?

What brand camshaft is it?

If this is something like a 112 LSA cam (I suspect) I'd be inclined to leave it at 106.5 and run it. It will have a better intake/exhaust ratio at TDC overlap and eventually lose a degree or two over time anyway.
Cam card on post #9 and yep 3 way crank pic also on post #9.

I do have to make a correction to my previous post. The Advance setting was NOT 106.5 it was like 90 deg something(forgot to write that one down). recap the three settings on the crank sprocket get me (R)111.5, (0)102 and (A)9x.? when trying to dial in @ 109.


I want back to the R setting on the crank and ran 3 sperate checks. Rechecking TDC each time. I got 109.25, 110.75, and 110.5.


Then I was wondering where my differences is coming in at. I found 1 deg of slop in the CC crankshaft socket. The pointer can be a half deg or more if not looking at it strait but the biggest margin of error is with determining the top of the intake lobe. The dial indicator appears to have about 3 deg of being right at top and thus my margin of error that I'm seeing.

I have no ide what my timing is. Its not a link belt and it is a roller.

So looks like I'm getting the 9 keyway chain set. What piece of garbage to go with?

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...BoCL_QQAvD_BwE

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...timing%2Bchain

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...timing%2Bchain

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Old 08-12-2022, 06:14 PM
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Guess it depends on your budget.

I always do the 9 keyway stuff as that's really the only way to dial these cams in anymore. The little offset keys have been becoming extinct for quite some time and always seemed to be a hassle to me. And I'm buying a timing set anyway for the build so.....

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Old 08-12-2022, 07:18 PM
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I did not know the offset Mopar cam keys were hard to get. Those were always helpful to use. In the past I have made offset cam keys. If your chain is still good, and it has 1 to 1 1/2 degrees slop, I'd use it as it probably will not stretch anymore. If I was closer to you I'd stop by and help..

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