#61  
Old 08-07-2022, 09:36 AM
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Maybe we should Post Up the number of hours that the people have been on a dyno in their lifetime and what they learned. A good dyno will have calibrations checked often and will repeat thru out the whole testing sequence.

I will start a different thread.

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  #62  
Old 08-07-2022, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
Maybe we should Post Up the number of hours that the people have been on a dyno in their lifetime and what they learned. A good dyno will have calibrations checked often and will repeat thru out the whole testing sequence.

I will start a different thread.

Tom V.
How about simply asking the operator of a reputable dyno shop to give honest numbers only. No knob turning games.
Then back it up at the track, the only true dyno is weight, MPH and ET. No games can be played there.

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Old 08-07-2022, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
It's a pretty common misconception that just because an engine is built with a good set of heads and a bigger camshaft that it won't make power down low in the "driving range" or it makes "less" power than a stock engine down there.

When in fact most cases the exact opposite is true. They will generally make more power down low in the driving range than a stock engine. The biggest difference is that "peak" power occurs at a higher rpm point. However, that doesn't mean it makes less power at 3000 rpm or less than a stock engine does.

Paul has shown this time and again pulling his "built" engines down to 2000 rpm on the dyno. They might make peak torque at a higher 4000 rpm vs 3400 on a stock engine, but it still makes more at 3400 than the stock engine does and at every point below that as well.

But, guys that never run their engines on a dyno wouldn't know that, they just know what misinformation they've read on the internet.
I always thought is was common knowledge that in our world, Pontiac engines, particularity 455s that are in some form real 455s or stokers that make up most of the performance builds make power down low no matter what.
You can not kill the low end grunt of a 455 if you tried to. They have a lot of "suck" to them. Essentially the same reason you can run a bigger carb and not drown the engine out vs other brands.

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Old 08-07-2022, 05:26 PM
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Nice thing about a dyno is if you have the proper sensors, you get very good information.
Be it EGTs sensors or wide band NTK sensors, so thread in race forum.

Tom V.

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Old 08-07-2022, 06:06 PM
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How about simply asking the operator of a reputable dyno shop to give honest numbers only. No knob turning games.
Then back it up at the track, the only true dyno is weight, MPH and ET. No games can be played there.
You need to know the elevation of the dyno and the weather the day the engine was dynoed. You then need to look at the elevation of the track and the weather the day of the runs. In a perfect world it all lines up and the car shows the Corrected Dyno HP. But in many cases without applying a correction factor to the et and MPH it will look look the dyno was wrong. Remember the dyno measured the uncorrected torque / HP.

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  #66  
Old 08-07-2022, 07:26 PM
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Stan knows a LOT about how to take the dyno data and the corrections there AND the track data and then making the corrections there for the true comparison.
Offering Performance Software Since 1987

That is a very long time.

The Technicians used to take the data 4 times a day with the time in-between used for Dyno Inspection, Engine Fluid checks, Identifying sensors that needed to be replaced and replacing them, and filling out this info in "Log Sheets".

The log sheets would also go to the Dyno Supervisor and the Specific Program Engineer.

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Old 08-07-2022, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Dragncar View Post
I always thought is was common knowledge that in our world, Pontiac engines, particularity 455s that are in some form real 455s or stokers that make up most of the performance builds make power down low no matter what.
You can not kill the low end grunt of a 455 if you tried to. They have a lot of "suck" to them. Essentially the same reason you can run a bigger carb and not drown the engine out vs other brands.
Yes, but with the way people talk around this forum you wouldn't think so.

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Old 08-07-2022, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
Maybe we should Post Up the number of hours that the people have been on a dyno in their lifetime ...
LOL. Tom and his Measuring Stick.

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  #69  
Old 08-07-2022, 08:03 PM
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I've said it before, it's not that difficult at a glance and some quick math to see if a dyno sheet has some excessive correction and/or fudge factor going on, as long as they provide BSFC and LBS per Hour, which is all measured.

In fact there was a sheet posted on the forum here that was in question a while back where someone dyno'd out on the East coast, I think Connecticut or something like that, and it was November. So we are talking sea level conditions and cold weather to start with. Yet the sheet for some reason had something like a 7% correction factor. ?????

I agree to some degree that the track is a great place but the issue with that many times, especially with a street car, is that the car itself is very seldom optimized to take advantage of the new power plant. Whether that be a 500hp engine, 600 or even 700hp.
Everyone on the forum wants a tight converter, everyone wants 3.08 gears, everyone wants a quiet 2 1/2" exhaust system. You just aren't going to see the full potential of the car that way.
To make matters worse, we all deal with different DA conditions around the country and many don't like to use correction factors and they don't know the weight of the vehicle either, which is absolutely essential when comparing track times. I love it when someone brags about how quick they are with minimal parts and we eventually find out it's in a 3000 lbs. car, LOL
Without that data, it's almost pointless. At least with a dyno sheet that has the BSFC and LBS. per Hour fuel data points, we know what we are dealing with.

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Old 08-07-2022, 10:05 PM
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[QUOTE=242177P;
]LOL. Tom and his Measuring Stick.

That is some funny chit there, totally expected 242177P,6362601
Made me laugh. Thanks again.

Tom V.

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Old 08-08-2022, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
I've said it before, it's not that difficult at a glance and some quick math to see if a dyno sheet has some excessive correction and/or fudge factor going on, as long as they provide BSFC and LBS per Hour, which is all measured.

In fact there was a sheet posted on the forum here that was in question a while back where someone dyno'd out on the East coast, I think Connecticut or something like that, and it was November. So we are talking sea level conditions and cold weather to start with. Yet the sheet for some reason had something like a 7% correction factor. ?????

I agree to some degree that the track is a great place but the issue with that many times, especially with a street car, is that the car itself is very seldom optimized to take advantage of the new power plant. Whether that be a 500hp engine, 600 or even 700hp.
Everyone on the forum wants a tight converter, everyone wants 3.08 gears, everyone wants a quiet 2 1/2" exhaust system. You just aren't going to see the full potential of the car that way.
To make matters worse, we all deal with different DA conditions around the country and many don't like to use correction factors and they don't know the weight of the vehicle either, which is absolutely essential when comparing track times. I love it when someone brags about how quick they are with minimal parts and we eventually find out it's in a 3000 lbs. car, LOL
Without that data, it's almost pointless. At least with a dyno sheet that has the BSFC and LBS. per Hour fuel data points, we know what we are dealing with.
Fair enough. I would like to dyno one of my engines at some point, it would be a great experience. It would take a lot of effort and money to do it where I live.

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Old 08-08-2022, 08:26 AM
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Fair enough. I would like to dyno one of my engines at some point, it would be a great experience. It would take a lot of effort and money to do it where I live.
Been some years since I last talked to Mike Lewis. Has he closed up shop? Does he still have the wolfs?

Stan

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Old 08-08-2022, 09:45 AM
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Fair enough. I would like to dyno one of my engines at some point, it would be a great experience. It would take a lot of effort and money to do it where I live.
Isn't Humbolt County CA near Sac? My wifes side of the family is from Sac and still have family up there in Rio Linda and Chico. Been a long time since I've dealt with anything in the area though (1990's?) I don't recall any good places to go unfortunately.

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Old 08-08-2022, 02:16 PM
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Been some years since I last talked to Mike Lewis. Has he closed up shop? Does he still have the wolfs?

Stan
Yes he still has the wolves. Had a new young one last time I was there.
He is trying to retire and not taking on very many jobs. Maybe some longtime customers, there were a few sick engines in his shop.
He has this big CNC machine that does all the boring, decking, line boring, stuff like that in his shop. IA2 blocks are in his CAD files even though he has never done one. I asked if he would do mine,nope. But he will balance the rotating assembly. I need to get down there and have that done.
Mike has done RAV heads though. Has a flowbench but has not ported heads in awhile or flowed any.
That shop is jammed full of spotless, new equipment. Everything you can think of. VERY interesting guy to talk to. He was a record setting professional driver for years. Knows everyone, and I mean all the top racer crowd. I was there for a few hours and got him talking. Old race stories from Freemont. He was pals with guys like Bruce Crower, Vic Edelbrock, Arias. He knew exactly who John Marcella was and thought highly of him.
He does have a dyno, but its never had a Pontiac on it. I would have to fabricate something to support the front of the engine. And its a conservative dyno. He said engines on it run 40-60 HP less than Westech. Seems like a lot, he might have been half joking but its not a happy dyno.

  #75  
Old 08-08-2022, 02:30 PM
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Isn't Humbolt County CA near Sac? My wifes side of the family is from Sac and still have family up there in Rio Linda and Chico. Been a long time since I've dealt with anything in the area though (1990's?) I don't recall any good places to go unfortunately.
We are about 5 1/2 hours from Sac. At least 3 hours of driving on mountain roads Redding way then hit I 5 south. Its a hot b!(ch in the summer too.
If I ever did decide to drive even to Sacramento and do it I might as well drive down I 5 to Westech and have it done. Lots of Pontiacs have been on their dyno and they have plenty of carbs and tuning expertise.

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Old 08-08-2022, 03:15 PM
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We are about 5 1/2 hours from Sac. At least 3 hours of driving on mountain roads Redding way then hit I 5 south. Its a hot b!(ch in the summer too.
If I ever did decide to drive even to Sacramento and do it I might as well drive down I 5 to Westech and have it done. Lots of Pontiacs have been on their dyno and they have plenty of carbs and tuning expertise.
Ouch, I've done that drive many times. Westech is outside of San Bernardino. I've used the 99 and the I-5 from Sac and it ends up being about 7 hours if there isn't too much traffic. If it takes you 5 1/2 hours just to get down to Sacramento you'd be in for a long day.

I drive down to Paul's for machine work and the dyno and he's about 3- 3 1/2 hours from me in Tuscon. Not terrible, usually a day trip to drop off/pick up parts, but the dyno requires being there 2 days

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Old 08-08-2022, 04:00 PM
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Ouch, I've done that drive many times. Westech is outside of San Bernardino. I've used the 99 and the I-5 from Sac and it ends up being about 7 hours if there isn't too much traffic. If it takes you 5 1/2 hours just to get down to Sacramento you'd be in for a long day.

I drive down to Paul's for machine work and the dyno and he's about 3- 3 1/2 hours from me in Tuscon. Not terrible, usually a day trip to drop off/pick up parts, but the dyno requires being there 2 days
Yes I think it would require 2 days down there and that means 3 days for me.
So with time lost from work, 800$ dyno fees, gas, motel and food ect I think it would be about 2K to get it all done.
I could do it but right now concentrating on a piece of property where I could have my own shop so the money is better spent there for the time being.
Nothing is set in stone right now but I think we can make it all work out.

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