[JLHarper]

I just read the thread.

Wasnt there a thread or article printed years ago about early Judges getting shipped out of FRE.CA WHILE pattern Judges were still being built?

[GTOPLACE]

I thought that raised white letter tires did not come out til 1970. And I think they are listed as RWL. I think the RL designation on my PHS is for Red Line tires. Anybody??

[davesjudge]

Here's my PHS, an 01C car. Parchment interior.

[dxeven]

Originally Posted by GTOPLACE

I thought that raised white letter tires did not come out til 1970. And I think they are listed as RWL. I think the RL designation on my PHS is for Red Line tires. Anybody??

I agree, RL = Red Line. Don't think RWL (raised white letter) were available until '70.

[dxeven]

So here's my take in a nutshell, on this very informative thread:

The Pattern Judges weren't necessarily the first 2,000 built. Maybe the term "first 2,000" is confusing the situation. Is it possible Pontiac execs said at a minimum they would build 2,000 Judges (using the Pattern), as if no one would special order one in a different color/options? My $.02.

[Bet Winner]

Originally Posted by JLHarper

I just read the thread.

Wasnt there a thread or article printed years ago about early Judges getting shipped out of FRE.CA WHILE pattern Judges were still being built?

What I remember was sometime in February, dealers could order cars and the pattern cars were still being built. Some dealer orders were built before all the pattern cars were built, but this first ocurred in February. BUT GTOPLACE'S car seems to contradict that. It does not appear to be a zone car if looking at the Dealer Order box at the top. I wonder if Bob Longpre (the dealer) had some contacts that allowed him to get in an order before other dealers could. Does OPTIONAL LOC on the PHS mean something here?

This is just an educated guess on my part, but something unusual happened here because this car was shipped earlier than any car we have seen shipped inside the U.S. and it is not a pattern. It was built 01D and shipped immediately. Someone may have done somthing against headquarters wishes!

Very unusual car!!!

[JLHarper]

Thats it I bet. Favors called in...its the Corporate American Way!

PMS had planned for these to be in stock on showroom floors or in the pipeline BEFORE they jumped into it with both feet, imo.

Cautious marketing, which was smart. See how they did against the Road Runner.

They sold and had the publics interest, so not to turn down dealer orders they started making up the other ones while the patterns were still being manufactured.

They knew they would sell at that point, so kept the pattern order alive.

The early date may have well been a special favor, which is highly plausible..happens every day in business. Some big PMD customer kids going to Viet Nam and they wanted a surprise...anything wouldnt surprise me.

Here is a 69 that went through Mecum as early JAN made Judge FYI...

Lot# 306F
High Bid: $0.00
PASSED

1969 PONTIAC GTO JUDGE

******FEATURE CAR***** - Carousel Red with Black interior - Bucket seats - Power steering - 4 speed - Ram Air III - 49,000 actual miles - Rally wheels - Manufactured January 9, 1969 - Original motor - 1st 100 made - Rare Z code - Fremont,CA plant - All original windows, carpet and interior! - One repaint - Totally Rust Free California Car!!

[Bet Winner]

Originally Posted by JLHarper

Here is a 69 that went through Mecum as early JAN made Judge FYI...

Lot# 306F
High Bid: $0.00
PASSED

1969 PONTIAC GTO JUDGE

******FEATURE CAR***** - Carousel Red with Black interior - Bucket seats - Power steering - 4 speed - Ram Air III - 49,000 actual miles - Rally wheels - Manufactured January 9, 1969 - Original motor - 1st 100 made - Rare Z code - Fremont,CA plant - All original windows, carpet and interior! - One repaint - Totally Rust Free California Car!!

I don't know how anyone would know the day of manufacture. The week is all we have I believe. That makes me skeptical.

[Bet Winner]

Originally Posted by Bet Winner

Does OPTIONAL LOC on the PHS mean something here?

Addition: Do ADV. ASSN. COL AND OPTIONAL LOC (both code 241) mean something here?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

RL = Red Line Tires in 1969. Raised white letter not offered on GTO until 70.

WL or RWL is abbreviation used for white letters.

GTOPLACE has a very interesting example. With 1D build, there were many others built before it (1C) at that plant and other plants. I would guess it was either a mistake or a big favor called in - for it to have been shipped 1-31-69. May have even been done for some special dealer extravaganza event on West Coast.

It is oddly equipped (non-posi, no gauges). It seems like it is equipped to be more visually appealing to things that would easily catch the casual glancers eyes into taking a closer look. Hideaways, Hood Tach, Red Lines, Chrome extensions. Peeking in would reveal 4speed T-handle and Console quickly. I would trade the remote mirror, chrome exts, and console for an HD Posi and Gauges in a heartbeat.

I have witnessed about 150 PHS's for early Judges (mostly on eBay) in past. I should have downloaded them all. This is the only one documented so far shipped within the USA before 2-5-69. Also prior to this example, 2C is earliest Non-Pattern. 3A or 3B is earliest Non-Carousel. Add to that, the combined knowledge within this forum, and we're talking about a lot of Judges.

"The First 2000" does absolutely indeed apply to the Zone/Pattern order. The decision to do so was made almost 40 years ago by PMD, not just a phrase coined a few years ago by enthusiasts. 2000 Zone/Pattern units were going out the door regardless. They went so fast and were so well received, PMD wisely broadened the horizon and opened up the ordering palate'.

Cars like GTOPLACE's were not a part of that exact decision. But it obviously was built well within the first 1000 units - at the very least. And probably the first one released/shipped in the USA. Its build format and shipping date indicate an isolated exception. And make his Judge interesting and unique in that regard.

If you spend next 5 years pooling all PHS's you can obtain on 1C through 2B Judges - I doubt more than you can count on one hand will surface like this - if any more at all. But you will have hundreds and hundreds built under the Zone/Pattern between 1C and 2B.

As an educated guess, I would bet less than 20 were built Non-Pattern between 1C and 2B. Pretty low number compared to 2000.

Here is the documentation on the one shipped to Canada 1-23-69. Owner listed cowl tag "line by line" in text. Which indicated a 1B build. It has pattern equipment, plus a few extras on top of that.

This is only one of about 4-5 threads on these early Pattern/Zone Judges in past few years. They all have juicy stuff. I'm thinking of compiling it all into a condensed version and submitting it for a "sticky thread" that stays at top.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by Bet Winner

Addition: Do ADV. ASSN. COL AND OPTIONAL LOC (both code 241) mean something here?

supcarbob has been in the Pontiac Dealership business a LONG time. He explained this, and a few others have as well. Adv Assn went to publicity/promotion (TV, magazines) within a certain dealer group. The amount has some variance from group to group (some more, some less, etc...). You will see this on a fairly good percentage of PHS invoices - but not all.

Optional Location signified the dealer "would" take after hour deliveries, OR deliveries at a location other than their physical lot. Such as streamlining amount of drop-offs for transporter and expediting reception of orders. One dealer may have 2 cars coming, another have 5 cars, another dealer 1 car. They could all go on that same load to the same location. Probably a little discount or incentive involved too.

If you were the only GM dealer within 100 miles, you probably didn't participate in the OPT LOC. But had to wait until your deliveries were most practical/most convenient for transporter.

*something like that*

[robz]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Here is the documentation on the one shipped to Canada 1-23-69. Owner listed cowl tag "line by line" in text. Which indicated a 1B build. It has pattern equipment, plus a few extras on top of that.

Even has either a 3.90 or 4.33 Diff to boot! Wonder where in Canada it was delivered...Do you know if he got the GM of Canada papers? It would be written there...

[Held for Ransom]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Here is the documentation on the one shipped to Canada 1-23-69. Owner listed cowl tag "line by line" in text. Which indicated a 1B build. It has pattern equipment, plus a few extras on top of that.

How do we know it was delivered to a dealer and available for sale before the 2-05-69 date?

[69camarox]

Originally Posted by Held for Ransom

How do we know it was delivered to a dealer and available for sale before the 2-05-69 date?

I do not know the actual date of sale ? it was shipped on 1/23/69 to Oshawa Ont. was then shipped to Annacis BC. where it was first sold . build date is 1b

[Bet Winner]

Originally Posted by 69camarox

I do not know the actual date of sale ? it was shipped on 1/23/69 to Oshawa Ont. was then shipped to Annacis BC. where it was first sold . build date is 1b

Would you post a picture of your data plate showing the build week? I have just never seen a Judge earlier than 1C.

[69camarox]

i will try to get a pic of data plate soon. not at home right now. bvz said it is pattern + a few options not sure what the pattern is but it is 4 spd with 390 rear.

[Todd Kozak]

its not a 'Pattern' car ... and I wonder if its possible that because it was an export job destined for Canada, they played it safe and let the dealers order their own cars.Maybe there was language in the Auto Pact that precluded special models. I've never seen a 69 Pattern car sold new in Canada.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

.... Owner listed cowl tag "line by line" in text. Which indicated a 1B build. It has pattern equipment, plus a few extras on top of that.

Just clarifying a little - I didn't mean to imply it was a Pattern built. Was implying it had all the equipment a Pattern built had, plus a few extras.

Looking back over the build, that isn't exactly true. Camarox's Judge didn't have Remote Mirror or SoftRay ALL. Other than that it contains all the equipment a Pattern would have, plus several nice extras.

The best answer I can supply about knowing how soon it was actually sold would only be a guess. But "Judging" by the build/equipment - it seems highly possible it was special ordered by a customer, not a "Lot Car". 50/50 %

Camarox: if you can't get a pic - maybe you can stencil shade it on paper and scan it like this one was done (pic posted). Either would be appreciated.

Also posting a "Pattern/Zone" 4spd Judge PHS for reference.

[Held for Ransom]

Bruce,
What other docs do you have? Do you have the PHS or the docs provided by GM of Canada?

[John V.]

For those that care, I just couldn't let the OPTIONAL LOC explanation go unchallenged any longer.

It has nothing to do with where the car was first shipped or anything else about delivery of the car.

You should have noticed that OPTIONAL LOC never appears by itself, it is always connected with ADV.ASSN.COL and vice-versa.

The reason is that they are to be read together as:

OPTIONAL LOCAL ADVERTISING ASSOCIATION COLLECTION

A group of dealers in a particular area could choose to participate to share costs for media advertising using funds collected for that purpose for every car sold by that group of dealers. Extra ad placements would then be run and suggesting that the customer "See your local dealer". In other words, the ads were intended to benefit all dealers in that local area, so they agreed to share the cost for them using this GM program.

As to the so-called pattern Judges, Pontiac produced Zone Inventory cars all the time. These cars were not built to a Dealer Order, they were built to a build order generated by PMD. Once they were assembled, they were initially shipped to Zone storage lots, some in each Zone. All Zone storage lots were id'd by a "dealer" code of 99* (991, 992, etc.).

Dealers then would purchase cars out of this Zone Stock Inventory. Once a Dealer claimed such a car, it would be Invoiced to him on that Date.

The Date Shipped shown on the Dealer Invoice could be days, weeks, or even months after the car was first shipped from the Final Plant to the Zone Storage lot.

Zone Inventory cars can be identified by the Identification No. on the Invoice. A Dealer Order car will have a 1st character P for the ID No. while a Zone Inventory car will have a 1st character Z.

Zone Inventory car Invoices will identify the Sold To Dealer but almost all will additionally show the identification no. for the Zone Storage lot where it was originally shipped under the SHIPPED TO section of the Invoice.

Example, I have an Invoice record for a Zone Stock Inventory GTO that was sold to a Dealer in Burkburnett, Texas from the Zone Storage Lot 20-992, a Zone Storage lot somewhere in the Oklahoma City, OK Zone. I do not know the physical location of the Zone Storage lots. This is just one of many Zone Inventory car Invoice Records that I can reference.

I believe earlier in this thread it was asked if the '69 Judge "pattern" cars were the first ever musclecar to be treated in this fashion. Since the practice of building cars for Zone Inventory was commonplace for Pontiac, the answer should be obvious.

But I suggest that, if the '64 GTO is considered the 1st musclecar, then the virtually identical '64 GTO convertibles that Pontiac built in Sept. '63 and distributed amongst the various Zones for the purpose of generating interest and publicity for the GTO by way of media exposure in newspaper feature test report articles and other promotional activities would have to qualify as perhaps the first "pattern" built musclecars.

There is nothing especially unique about Pontiac planning the production of however many '69 Judges as they did. With a planned advertising blitz, it only stands to reason that Pontiac would actually have some cars available for immediate purchase. Nothing worse then getting somebody all pumped up to buy a Judge only to discover a 4-6 week waiting period for the car to be built. Pontiac built the cars in advance so that Buyers could drive them home immediately. Of course, they would accept a Dealer Order and build those as they trickled in too, so it is ridiculous to think that the 1st 2000 Judges BUILT were all built to the same PMD spec. But at least you should be able to distinguish between a Dealer Order build and a Zone Inventory build from the Invoices.