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Old 06-22-2022, 07:33 AM
hdpontiac hdpontiac is offline
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Default 5N code

Looking at a 65 GTO and it has the 5N code but I'm confused because on some sites if the car is manual it should have 5NW but I looking at alot of dealers and I see manual cars with only 5N did they put the 5NW on some tags only or one of the plants that did use the 5N code I believe it was pon and kan.

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Old 06-22-2022, 10:51 AM
pngoat pngoat is offline
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5N is the correct code for a Pontiac MI. or Kansas City built GTO. The W after the 5N means the car was built with retractable seat belts. Does the car you're looking at have retractable seat belts?

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Old 06-22-2022, 01:21 PM
hdpontiac hdpontiac is offline
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Default 5N

No doesn't have retractable seatbelts but is a 4 speed manual I was confused because I read that the W was for manual transmission but I appreciate your answer and yours is the right one .

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Old 06-22-2022, 03:53 PM
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The 'W' would be on the engine block in the engine code.
For example - 78XW
The 'W' is for the 4 speed tranny.



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Old 06-22-2022, 09:49 PM
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That is the first time that I have heard that the W on the block was supposedly used to identify the retractable seat belt option. Maybe you might want to discuss this with John V who is an expert on the 64 and 65 engine block/data plate codes.

Would be interesting to know where that info was posted.

Tom V.

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Old 06-22-2022, 10:12 PM
'ol Pinion head 'ol Pinion head is offline
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The 78X & 78XW (with the W stamped later) was a '64 GTO engine code deal, only.

On the '65 Pontiac & Kansas City Cowl tags, the accessory codes (bottom row) should list an L in the second grouping, ie, 2L if the LeMans or GTO was factory optioned with a 4 speed.

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Old 06-22-2022, 10:51 PM
John V. John V. is offline
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The Fisher Body Data Plate for '64 and '65 did not code the engine choice.

All four A body Plants used the 5 Group coding system but only the Pontiac home Plant and the KC, Missouri Plant regurgitated 5 Group codes on their respective Fisher Body Data Plates.

As correctly explained here, Group 5, Code W identified the Custom Front Seat Belts w/ Retractors both years (the '65 retractors were far nicer than the simple winders used in '64).

John is correct about the secondary trans code stamping of the block but this is true only for '64. And it appears that Fremont did NOT stamp the secondary code W to signify a 4 spd option build on the block until sometime mid year. The '64 secondary trans codes were SUPPOSED to be stamped at the final plant depending on the drivetrain combination. They didn't always get it right. In '65, secondary trans codes were not used, the 2 character manifest code stamped at the engine assembly plant was all that should be on a '65 block (plus the EUN of course).

KC Data Plates should have the Group 2, Code L to indicate the floor pan was cut for a floor shifted man trans. This code was not used at Pontiac. Presumably because Fisher Body cut the hole at KC but at Pontiac it was cut out on the Car Div. side of the Plant so did not involve Fisher Body or their 5 Group code system.

Older references will say the 2L code indicated a 4 spd. This is wrong. It was used on builds with a floor shifted 3 spd too.

I'm not as conversant with the '65 5 Group codes. IIRC, there was a specific Group 2 code for '65 builds that got the Heavy Duty Dearborn 3 spd, this likely because it required a specific floor cutout different from the Muncie trannies.

Both years, the Transmission Manifest Code for the wide ratio Muncie 4 spd was W. You will see this in the Trans Box on the Manifest docs or Billing History Cards.

If the Regular Production 4 spd was ordered with the 3.90 rear axle, you got the Code 9 Trans instead. It was also a wide ratio Muncie but required a specific 6 tooth internal speedo drive gear, so the trans had its own p/n and code.

If the limited production close ratio 4 spd was ordered, it required the 3.90 axle, tripower, and a few other mandatory options. It was a close ratio Muncie and identified as a Code 8. It was not included just because you special ordered the 3.90 axle, it had to be selected from the Special Order form.

For a '65, the particular Trans Code will be in the Trans Box of the Billing History Card.

Fisher Body did not use the Data Plate to build cars, they used the Manifests. Certain Manifest info was regurgitated on the Data Plates at specific Plants.

An error in the coding of the Data Plate did not cause a misbuild, Data Plate coding errors did occur on occasion. As long as the Manifest was coded correctly, the build would be correct. Unless of course an error in production occurred and not caught by an inspector. Stuff happens!

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Old 06-23-2022, 10:52 AM
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Keith Seymore Keith Seymore is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
That is the first time that I have heard that the W on the block was supposedly used to identify the retractable seat belt option. Maybe you might want to discuss this with John V who is an expert on the 64 and 65 engine block/data plate codes.

Would be interesting to know where that info was posted.

Tom V.
You are correct about the W on the block.

The W the original poster is talking about here is on the body cowl tag.

K

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Last edited by Keith Seymore; 06-23-2022 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 06-23-2022, 11:19 AM
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Thanks Keith, Tom V.

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Old 06-24-2022, 11:41 AM
G.T.O.boy G.T.O.boy is offline
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5N is only for the Kansas and Pontiac plants, Fremont and Baltimore were Chevy controlled and did not use group numbers on the data plate. Group 5 was accessory codes and has nothing to do with engine/trans codes see the info from John V. http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...+64+trim+plate

John V. has also done the research on the M21 close ratio and there are many errors as he has only documented one M21 car. Most 3.90 gear cars had the code W wide ratio M20 trans in 1964. PHS documents still use the incorrect assumption that 3.90 cars got M21 trans automatically. They miss things and make assumptions, mine they decoded as a 3.23 gear car, but the build sheet documents from PHS code it out as a 3.55 car. Code 9 is for the different tooth code in the transmission for a 3.90 gear setup, the gear tooth count for the speedo in the M20 for use in an 3.90 geared car so the speedo reads properly. Code 8 was the M21 code and only had the one tooth count setup as it was meant only for the 3.90 geared cars.

3 speed and automatic cars got no trans stamp code on the engine. The W, 8, or 9 was stamped on the block so the proper engine/trans got installed with proper speedo calibration with the correct rear end. My engine that was built sometime in November and installed in a late January/early February car was no W code stamped on the block

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