[mysticmissle]

in the middle of a change from m20 and 8.2 to an richmond OD 5 speed and 8.5 posi. havent swapped the rear the rear yet, im going to tackle that today. I was thinking, except for yoke, the drive shaft could stay the same. Now i am thinking it is too long. Has anyone been down this path? its a 69 firebird
i need to upgrade a bit anyway, as it is an original ohc car, its not exactly an over built piece.

[Tom Vaught]

Multiple things different between them M20 and Richmond and 8.2 vs 8.5 rear.

a) 8.5 is a lot stronger, as you know. Not sure about length and yoke differences as
did the Ford Rear.

b) The Muncie M20 vs the Nash/Richmond has several differences

1) 10 spline input vs 26 spline on the input shaft is the early vs the Richmond.
Different clutch disc required.

2) Trans mount is farther back on the Richmond Trans and the engine/trans do NOT normally sit level, therefore the crossmember pad needs to be dropped about 1/4th of an inch to get the driveshaft angles in the right spot vs the rear axle yoke.

3) Then you have the trans shifter and linkage. Could be a Hurst 5 speed shifter or a Richmond/ Leonard Long trans shifter. The Hurst Shifter requires a slight increase on the Shifter Porch Hole to clear the leaver without binding. The Leonard Long Shifter is a race piece.

4) Drive shaft length and durability comes into the picture: Modify what you have or build new. Better U-Joints.

5) If the car had "back-up" lights the the trans switch for that needs to be figured out.

6) Because the Trans rear support is farther back, you will need to drill new holes for the frame mounts (roof car) or add plates is a Convertible to support the crossmember.

6) Then you have the Emergengy Brake cable and related parts to figure out with your 8.5 rear and Richmond.

Good Luck. Just takes some effort to make it all work right. Hopefully a lot of the things on the 6 cylinder bird are common with the V8 bird, but not a bird expert by any means.

What rear gear have you decided to run???

Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

ARE YOU ASSUMING SUB-FRAME CONNECTORS OR ARE THEY ALREADY INSTALLED??

Tom V.

[AG]

The driveshaft will have to be shortened approximately 1.5" because the 8.5" yoke is longer. Make sure you check to be sure.

[AG]

I have an 8.5" rear from a 1972 Nova in my race car.

[Tom Vaught]

SOME SIMILAR INFO FROM THE CHEVY GUYS.

https://www.chevelles.com/threads/mu...-speed.146063/

Tom V.

[mysticmissle]

[QUOTE=Tom Vaught;6350761]Multiple things different between them M20 and Richmond and 8.2 vs 8.5 rear.

1) 10 spline input vs 26 spline on the input shaft is the early vs the Richmond.
Different clutch disc required.
BOUGHT CORRECT CLUTCH AND ALSO UPGRADED TO BILLET FLYWHEEL

2) Trans mount is farther back on the Richmond Trans and the engine/trans do NOT normally sit level, therefore the crossmember pad needs to be dropped about 1/4th of an inch to get the driveshaft angles in the right spot vs the rear axle yoke.
I HAVE MADE THE EXISTING TRANS CROSSMEMBER WORK, HOWEVER, I WILL HAVE TO CHECK DRIVELINE ANGLE, IF I DO NEED TO LOWER IT AS YOU SUGGEST, I WILL MAKE A TUBULAR CROSSMEMBER, LIKE I DID ON MY 64 USING A JEGSTER KIT.

3) Then you have the trans shifter and linkage. Could be a Hurst 5 speed shifter or a Richmond/ Leonard Long trans shifter. The Hurst Shifter requires a slight increase on the Shifter Porch Hole to clear the leaver without binding. The Leonard Long Shifter is a race piece.
IT DID COME WITH A LONG SHIFTER, (THIS HAS BEEN IN A BOX SINCE 2017, NOT QUITE NOS, BUT GD STUFF,) IT WAS SLIGHTLY REARWARD OF THE FACTORY HOLE, I WILL BE ORDERING A TUNNEL REPAIR KIT TO FILL THE HOLE. i HAD PREVIOUSL MODIFIED THE TUNNEL TO MAKE THE VERTICAL GATE SHIFTER FIT. i MAY NEED TO LEAVE SOME OF THAT CLEARNCE FOR THE SHIFT RODS ON THE RICHMOND, AS IT IS CLOSE TO THE ''FACTORY TUNNEL RADIUS. ''

4) Drive shaft length and durability comes into the picture: Modify what you have or build new. Better U-Joints.
NEW DRIVESHAFT WILL DEFINITELY BE IN THE CARDS ASAP

5) If the car had "back-up" lights the the trans switch for that needs to be figured out.
I SEE THE PLUG ON THE RICHMOND BUT DO NOT THINK THE ORIGINAL 3 SPEED HAD PROVISIONS FOR THE BACK UP LIGHTS. I WILL SPEND SOME TIME MAKING THAT WORK AT SOME POINT

6) Because the Trans rear support is farther back, you will need to drill new holes for the frame mounts (roof car) or add plates is a Convertible to support the crossmember.
I WAS ABLE TO USE THE REARWARD TWO HOLES, AFTER NOTCHING CROSSMEMBER FOR THE TRANS INTERFERENCE. ONCE DRIVESHAFT ANGLE IS VERIFIED I WILL ADDRESS EITHER OTHER HOLES, OR MAKING NEW CROSSMEMBER

6) Then you have the Emergengy Brake cable and related parts to figure out with your 8.5 rear and Richmond.
I THINK THE EBRAKE SET UP WILL BE AN EASY PART OF THE SWAP, HOWEVER I HAVE 4 WHEEL DISCS AND POWER STEERING, I WILL SWAP OVER THE WINTER. I WANT TO GET CAR BACK ON ROAD FOR SUMMER, NOW.

Good Luck. Just takes some effort to make it all work right. Hopefully a lot of the things on the 6 cylinder bird are common with the V8 bird, but not a bird expert by any means.
455 AND M20 HAVE BEEN IN FOR ABOUT A YEAR NOW, I INSTALLED NEW FLOORS, BODY BUSHINGS, AND DSE SUBFRAME CONNECTORS IN 2021 IN PREP OF THE 455 GOING IN, CAR IS SUPER TIGHT

What rear gear have you decided to run???

ITS A 8.5 WITH 410S, NEW AXLES,AND ONE OF THOSE FANCY ALUMINUM COVERS THAT HELP TO SUPPORT THE CARRIER CAPS, LPW MAYBE. ALSO INSTALLING MOROSO SLIDE A LINKS AS MY BUDDY HELPED REDESIGN THEM WITH MOROSO FOR THEIR RERELEASE QUITE A FEW YEARS AGO. A NOD TO HIM FROM ME. i HAVE A SET OF 373S, I MOST LIKELY WILL SWAP THOSE WITHTHE DISC BRAKE SWAP, IF I FIND THE 410S ARE JUST MORE RPM THEN I WANT TO SWING ON THE HIGHWAY.
I HAVE ABOUT 27.5'' REDLINES WITH TORQUETHRUSTS ON IT NOW. THE TIRE HEIGHT AND THE .77 OD SHOULD PUT IT JUST ABOUT THE SAME AS THE 323S THAT ARE IN IT NOW.
IT WAS A HARD CHOICE TO PUT THIS IN OVER THE FACTORY 8.2 I HAVE WITH 336 POSI, BUT EVEN IF I HAVE TO REGEAR, THE STRENGTH OF THE 8.5 WAS HARD TO DENY. AND I DONT WANT A 9'' IN THIS CAR.
I AM NOT SURE WHAT HOUSING I HAVE, IT IS A K1971 HOUSING SO I THINK THAT MAKES IT A 72 MODEL YEAR. CASTING NUMBER INDICATES IT MAYBE NODULAR 1235542N WITH A GX CODE. I SPENT SOME TIME YESTERDAY ON NOVA SITES, COULDNT FIND A MATCH,

THANKS FOR THE INPUT

[Tom Vaught]

Sounds like you have a good plan and a nice choice of parts. Tom V.

[mysticmissle]

i am going to need a speedometer drive gear for the richmond and a speedo cable as the port is on the passenger side. Cable will be easy as i can just order a longer camaro one.
does anyone have a color chart for which drive gear is appropriate for 410 gears? it appears i may need an adapter to get the speedo to read close?

[Tom Vaught]

I will have to look at my Speed-o-Cable parts and gears.
I had a lot of that stuff at one time. Not sure where it is at not but will look again.

The camaro speedometer cable is something that I need to order.
Once you get yours operational can you PM the parts you used for your deal??

Tom V.

[mysticmissle]

sure ill post some pics too.

['ol Pinion head]

Originally Posted by AG

The driveshaft will have to be shortened approximately 1.5" because the 8.5" yoke is longer. Make sure you check to be sure.

Agree with Damian, pinion area & stock yoke of the 8.5 require shortening 7/8" when swapping an 8.5 in place of any 8.2 10 bolt or stock pinion flange 12 bolt.

Now the above is just for the 8.5 rear swap. As a transmission length example... Pontiac 2 door A-bodies with a Muncie 4spd went from 56.00" to 55 3/8" driveshaft when it went from small output Muncie to large output shaft Muncie (1971). The GM application DN Street 5 spd /Richmond 5 spd is direct bolt in (been there twice) driveshaft has to be cut another 5/8"

5/8" + 7/8" = 12/8"..... 1.5"

[mysticmissle]

you guys are absolutely correct on the 1.5'' stock driveshaft from the 8.2 and 3 speed measures 50'' center to center, i removed the small yoke and replaced it with a short turbo 400 yoke, as you know they do come in different lengths. I can get the shaft into the trans and the rear but its is too tight for any movement. I will be ordering a 48.5'' shaft.
I also relearned the fact that the rear end of a 71 firebird is the same width as a first gen, but the leaf spring pads are outboard about an inch. I knew this but had forgot. I am waiting on MOSER perches to come so i can install them on my now perchless rear. That new 9'' rear was looking real good for a few minutes, however I am committed to this path and plasma cut the old perches off. hopefully get those tacked in and verify shaft length this weekend and order a new shaft up next week. I will pull the rear and finish weld out from under the gas tank.
I have a few shops local but does anyone have a driveshaft shop they have had great success with, that ships as well?

[AG]

Yes, Strange Engineering.

[mysticmissle]

Ordered strange drive shaft and yoke today. Their yoke is slightly longer than the GM one I measure with, center to center is going to be 48.375”
Have crossmember mocked up, rear is in w slide a links
New bushings jn the springs and shackles few
Pics attached. I will add pic of crossmember when welded

Used moser perches on the rear. They are excellent pieces
In my opinion

[65madgoat]

Nice work.

Curious why you chose to run this new Richmond over the more popular Tremec TXK?

[mysticmissle]

Mostly money. I paid 2500 for the trans and shifter new in the box.
That being said I like the ratios of this trans and it fit wo any tunnel mods, and I can use the stock bell. I also believe I’m Going to be able to hook up the steering column lock linkage back up. At least that’s a goal

[65madgoat]

Ok. What gears does that Richmond have? Will the shifter fit with no cutting like a TXK?

Seems like only one OD gearing you can get at .77 with the Richmond....

[mysticmissle]

yes i have the i think its 286 first and .77 5th. i had cut up the tunnel to fit the vertical gate in it before. but this should fit right where the three speed shifter came out. I will actually have to cut a hole in the tunnel repair panel. i probably wont do that til winter. but the shifter exits just about in the center of the flat in the same location as the 3 speed did.
i should be able to get some pics and measurements tomorrow

[tom s]

TKO in a 69 bird only needs the shifter hole open a touch.Tunnel is bigger than a A body.Tom