[tempest1964]

Just curious on the 12.7:1 box. How many turns lock-to-lock does this equal. I installed the Jeep GC box and I’m just curious how big a difference it is? Seems like my box was about 3-1/2 turns lock to lock.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by tempest1964

Just curious on the 12.7:1 box. How many turns lock-to-lock does this equal. I installed the Jeep GC box and I’m just curious how big a difference it is? Seems like my box was about 3-1/2 turns lock to lock.

2-1/2 turns lock to lock.

[JLMounce]

Decided I was going to give this box a try. At this price, I figure if it's not what I want, or turns out to be crap, I'll live with it for a bit and then go with a Lee or Turn One box.

https://www.firebirdcentral.com/1967..._p/pow-400.htm

This way I'm still on track with other upgrades I have planned for the car. I appreciate everyone's responses. I'll update this thread once I receive and install the new box.

[HWYSTR455]

Keep in mind that the pump valving should match the box valving. Pumps are becoming hard to find with the 'correct' valving. If you ever turn you pump in for a core, save the valves.

AGR used to sell boxes & pumps as a 'set', shame they don't do that anymore. Their' boxes have been hit or miss over the last few years, suspect the 800 cores are drying up.

Hands down the 'best' box out there is the 600 series, which some call the '670' box. The number after the 6 is generally valve/ratio configuration, but not sure (age/brain fog).

New 600 series boxes are produced in runs, and sometimes it's hard to find one. There are places out there that have cores and rebuild them, Turn One, DSE, Lee, Flaming River, and a couple others come to mind. (I think DSE uses Turn One now). Many 'pro' builders state that even new 600 boxes need to be gone through. Couple reasons for that, if you're using a Saginaw pump, valving needs to be changed, because the 600 series box was originally designed to be used with a type II pump.

Anything past 1986 or so was designed to use a type II pump as well.

Type II pumps are much more efficient, and produce less heat. They are definitely the way to go if you can properly mount them. All valves are interchangeable across all type II pumps.

Not so with Saginaw/Borgeson pumps. Think Borgeson bought Saginaw, but they make the same design pump as Saginaw, but now have several different types of valving, so you can't interchange between all models.

Borgeson makes type II 'compatible' pumps, so if you buy one that looks physically the same as a Saginaw, you most likely will end up with a type II valving arrangement.

A 600 series box is hands down the best box on the market that can easily be adapted to older cars. Some general rebuild companies can do fine rebuilding the 600 boxes, mainly because the cores aren't all beat up like the 800 ones. But it's still a little bit of a crap shoot.

Our host has replacement 600 boxes, rebuilt units, I have one, but haven't driven the car yet. And I am using a type II pump this time around, with the lower psi valving.

I refuse to get a junk yard 'donor' box, because, they usually are beat up, and you have no idea what the history is. Due to condition and valving, since there's so many combos, you can't be sure what you get. It can be 'darty' at the top, over steer, under steer, valving can super heat the pump, etc. Just not worth the trouble, and you usually don't know some of it is happening. Many, since they are generally hobby/weekend cars, will think all those conditions are an 'improvement' over the beat up leaking crap that gets pulled out, so won't know if it's actually 'right' or not.

If you want the best, use a 600 series, go to a specific builder, tell them what you want and feel, and have them do a box AND pump for you (regardless of the condition of your existing pump). If you can do a type II box, do so. If not, just use a Saginaw pump they provide.


.

[HWYSTR455]

Borgeson Pumps, Brackets, and Hoses HOME:

http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/home.php?cat=55

.

[JLMounce]

I'm not well versed on power steering pumps. Guess I have some researching to do on that.

I would assume this is a newer style box, so I may need to look at a different pump as well.

[tempest1964]

Originally Posted by b-man

2-1/2 turns lock to lock.

Thanks B-man. That’s quite a difference .

[b-man]

Originally Posted by tempest1964

Thanks B-man. That’s quite a difference .

You’re welcome.

For my Le Mans convertible I cheaped-out and pulled a good used box off of a late 2nd-gen WS6 T/A, I think it’s a 14:1 variable ratio unit. Anyway that one turns out to have 3 turns lock to lock and so far seems to work okay with the original ‘64 pump. Best $40 I’ve spent on the car.

[RocktimusPryme]

I did the CVF pump, its reasonably priced and has a higher than stock pressure valve to match my 3rd gen box. I did have to go to a smaller belt, as you are very limited in room to get it tight with the later style pump. It wants to hit the alternator. It has the early style lines so you don't have to do any wizardry with getting lines custom made. Just a simple adapter set on the gear side.


If I ever run out of more important stuff to do I think I can swap out the 12si for one of the newer CS style alternators which I think have a smaller body. Even a 1/4 inch would make a notable difference.

[highrisk]

I sent my original unit to a guy named Chip in Springfield, MO and he rebuilt my original box with quick ratio gears but I maintained my original unit. I am very happy with the results and the unit looks better than new. This is their website http://www.powersteering.com/

[purepmd]

I had mine rebuilt by Red Head Steering Gears in Seattle. They rebuilt my gear (damaged when my TATA was hit in the front wheel and the force twisted the drive shaft.) The turn around time was minimal and the cost was cheaper than replacing it. Look them up at www.redheadsteeringgears.com. Also on facebook.

[melwff]

before spending any money have you considered trying to adjust the box? With the engine off, loosen the lock nut on the top of the box , turn the adjusting screw just a little back and forth to break it free and then turn it closewise until you feel resistance. Do not force it, just use the strength of your hand till it stops turning, then tighten the nut.

[JLMounce]

Quick update. I e been out of state on business but have received the box I ordered from Firebird Central.

It is a Lares box number 974. Not installed yet but I looked it over thoroughly. The paint quality is decent to good. Could be better but I’m not really concerned about that.

I’m still somewhat concerned about the 10:1 ratio considering my setup. It may take a bit of getting used to.

[JLMounce]

Another update here. I picked up my car from the shop after having them install the new box. Typically this is something I’d tackle myself, but I’ve been sick and busy and just needed it done.

The shop did have a bit of trouble getting the power assist system bled properly. They ran into the same issue that njsteve ran into when they bled the system with the engine running. They were able to get that sorted however. So if you’re replacing one of these boxes, make sure the bleed procedure is done either with the engine off or just being cranked.

First impressions are that the box is much tighter than the original variable ratio box it replaced. Initially the box I would categorize as “stiff.” I have read at various places that this is somewhat normal for these boxes and that they will tend to wear in as miles are put on the car. The steering should remain firmer and weighted but the stiffness should reduce.

Although my drive home was mostly straight, I did notice some loosening of the steering feel. I will continue to put some miles on this and report back on that.

Now on to feel, handling etc. I was a bit worried that the 10:1 ratio was going to be too fast. Really though it’s quite tractable and easy to place in traffic and turning. With the added resistance of the modified valving it keeps the box from being twitchy. I absolutely wouldn’t want this fast if a ratio with the overboosted feel of the factory box.

On center feel is decent for a box, but there’s still no mistaking this for a rack and pinion setup. There’s only a very minor amount of dead space on center, which really does make it more predictable in traffic.

Turn in is much more immediate which is to be expected considering I’m comparing a fixed 10:1 ratio box vs a variable ratio box that is around 16:1 just off center. Over-all I like the fixed ratio better. The car just feels more direct as a result.

The weather is looking decent this weekend so I’d like to get out and put some corners under its belt so I really get to know it’s new behavior.

[njsteve]

I installed that new Lares 974 box in my 75 Firebird, bled it at idle and it seemed to still have some air or just low pressure (little to no assist) at idle.

Lares said the stock original pumo's output pressure would be fine. They recommended to pull the pressure hose fitting off the pump and make sure the valve inside moves freely and then reinstall the fitting and hose. I was going to do this a week after installing it but it seems that whatever tiny air bubble(s) that were still inside the valve managed to disappear after a week of sitting. So the system does work nicely now. Box is very firm. It has a real road feel to it now. I did have to reset the tie rods as the steering wheel was about 1/4 turn off with the new box. Wheels are now straight and steering wheel is in the right spot and all is good in the world

[66sprint6]

I guess that the Lares 974 is not for an A-body? I ordered a box off of Rock Auto a couple years ago and installed it in our '66 Tempest. It was supposed to be for a mid-seventies Lemans and it is a great improvement overall. But it doesn't turn as much as the old one, increasing the turning radius dramatically. Many people have told me that I got an F-body box and this happens frequently with rebuilds.

[RocktimusPryme]

Hmm, mine has always been a bit fishy at idle since I installed the new PS pump. It will sometimes chatter, I guess is the best way to describe it when backing out of the garage. Clears up when you goose it some. I wonder if it wasnt bled perfectly and still has air in it.

[Geoff]

I doubt you have still in the system, it would have bled out driving.

Low speed chatter sounds like a low pressure problem. Pressure valve is behind the spring, & the springs sits behind the high pressure hose outlet fitting. Remove fitting & pull out valve. You should remove one shim & try it. Each shim increases pressure by about 120-150 psi.

[389]

I always wanted to try that 10:1 ratio.... With a 25 or 30 pound valve it would be fantastic..

[JLMounce]

I put about 15 miles on the car this weekend and it's already starting to loosen up. Honestly, that 10:1 ratio with the heavy valve is really nice. It's super direct and as fast as you would expect. However due to the extra weight in the wheel from the heavier valve, it's not twitchy, nor is it darty. In fact, it's less so then the old variable box it replaced. The ratio is absolutely controlled by the fact that the system doesn't feel over-assisted.