[tom s]

MT had 2 SC cars.Tom

[Hesster1977]

Tom - I still am amazed at the Kahuna's GM had back then to release Aluminum Exhaust Manifolds. Exciting times.

Having worked at GM in Warren Tech Center for 30 years, things got more and more "conservative" in the 80's. Emissions choked 200 hp powertrains were the norm.

Things did not really get exciting until Corvette put out the first 400HP engine (Merc Marine DOHC) in 1990. Wow back then - 400 HP! I worked for the Corvette Platform back then and that was a really big deal.

Eventually the new norm in the Preproduction Prototype Shop was 600 hp CTSV's, ZR1 Super Vette's. and the ZL1 and Z28 Camaros. I remember when they were started up after final assembly with a roar we would all pause for a moment and pay homage.

Nowadays, a Whipple SC on a LS3 Camaro gets you 700 HP with room to spare, idles all day - with the AC blasting.

[tom s]

Those exhaust manifolds were approved way back in at least 1961!60 years ago!They had a all alu engine in at least 1959!Tom

[Keith Seymore]

My dad tried running those manifolds on the street and burned them up.

They had been patched and repatched, with repairs on top of patches, until he finally made a pair of tubular steel headers. They were really short, so much so that you could look up through the collector and see daylight.

Mac McKellar saw those headers and really like them and said "I'm going to design you a cam for those". So he did. He even stamped the production numbers on the end.

The Ramchargers protested Dad one time and made him tear down. They checked that cam on the tailgate of their station wagon, laying in V blocks and with dial indicators, and pronounced it OK even though it was bogus as hell.

K

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by tom s

Those exhaust manifolds were approved way back in at least 1961!60 years ago!They had a all alu engine in at least 1959!Tom

I had the pleasure of working on a slant 6 Chrysler engine that was cast in the early 1960's. Aluminum bock and head. So all the OE's were giving a hard look at the new lightweight material for all sorts of uses. The "self porting" idea of the Pontiac exhaust manifolds was a really neat application!

[77 TRASHCAN]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

My dad tried running those manifolds on the street and burned them up.

They had been patched and repatched, with repairs on top of patches, until he finally made a pair of tubular steel headers. They were really short, so much so that you could look up through the collector and see daylight.

Mac McKellar saw those headers and really like them and said "I'm going to design you a cam for those". So he did. He even stamped the production numbers on the end.

The Ramchargers protested Dad one time and made him tear down. They checked that cam on the tailgate of their station wagon, laying in V blocks and with dial indicators, and pronounced it OK even though it was bogus as hell.

K

My older friends that had knowledge of “happenings” back then say the Chrysler bunch were the biggest cheaters!!!!
I keep thinking of the Wayne county pro stock cluster. I don’t think we ever heard that whole story, and that’s a recent ordeal, nothing like the 60’s stuff....

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN

My older friends that had knowledge of “happenings” back then say the Chrysler bunch were the biggest cheaters!!!!
I keep thinking of the Wayne county pro stock cluster. I don’t think we ever heard that whole story, and that’s a recent ordeal, nothing like the 60’s stuff....

Dad would tell them "I'll tell you every place I'm cheating if you do the same".

They never took him up on the offer, but he did notice it took three guys for them to take the spare out of their car.

K

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

My dad tried running those manifolds on the street and burned them up.

They had been patched and repatched, with repairs on top of patches, until he finally made a pair of tubular steel headers. They were really short, so much so that you could look up through the collector and see daylight.

K

I haven't talked to him for quite a while, but there's a guy here in the Minneapolis area running a set of the reproduction aluminum manifolds on his '63 Catalina. They were coated with Jet-Hot or one of the other similar products, and seemed to be holding up to street use. Of course, those kinds of coatings weren't available back when your dad was trying them.

[Hesster1977]

If you were lucky enough to still have these manifolds as period correct, a jet hot or Ceramic coating in aluminum look would be the way to go, and have original cred at car shows. Hell, even if you still wanted to race with them.

[Hesster1977]

The '71 - 72 455 HO T/A.
Article from Pontiac Mag Feb 1985.
What a great car, would love to own one. 480 Ft Lb Tq and .83 G in the corners - Impressive -stump pulling torque. That is what matters on the street
Not "very" Rare at 3402 total produced, with 1353 Manuals, but who wouldn't want one to show off!
I don't hardly ever see one at the many car shows here in MI.
Yeah - there were 455 "HO's" supposedly in 75-76 but at 4000 lbs and ~200 HP, the glory days were long gone. My Bro had a '76 455, and I and my '77 Bandit, and all was still cool given the stickers on the hood scoop, even at the anemic 200HP ratings..
Check out the '"Lady 'Bim" in black in the photo shoot. Guess that was hot in the '80's.....

https://www.motortrend.com/features/...tiac-trans-am/

[Hesster1977]

As I stated in my Post #1:

"I have a stash of Pontiac Documentation to share with Forum readers".

Yeah - it may not be NEW info for some of us seasoned Pontiac aficionado's, but you may find it nostalgic and interesting reading, as some of the articles were written 30 - 40 years ago.

So as another certain Sticky Thread has gone "away" where I had posted some of this stuff, I will continue here for readers to ignore, or hopefully enjoy.

Here is a Article from the Pontiac Mag, August '83, on the "Rise and Fall of the GTO". Cool back history on the development with the GM players Wangers (came up with the idea for the GTO in 1962), Estes, and DeLorean.

Pages 1 - 3.

[Hesster1977]

"Rise and Fall of the GTO"
Pages 4 - 6.

[77 Canamman]

Sorry, that article was not that great, and should be relegated to the trash.

[Hesster1977]

So, working my way chronologically thru my stash, some will be a good read, some a maybe not so much. I am just picking and choosing as we go.
Here is one of a number of articles on the "Ram Air V".

I probably posted a different article (a HO Publication Article) on this Engine in the Other Post, but it is buried deeper than a Alabama Tick.

So there is some interesting commentary in this, and maybe somewhat subjective.

Like the comment - "To put it bluntly, the Ram Air V was a poor performing engine". No flow bench's back then? Caught up in the whole Tunnel Port thing.

And the Con Rod Vendor going bankrupt, - like was GM Purchasing asleep at the wheel? I read elsewhere that the RA V Rods would go out of round at Revs, maybe a little too beefy, or Rod Bolts not up to the task. Maybe the SD455 Rods were in fact the best Pontiac Rod ever...

[Hesster1977]

The 1963 Grand Prix 421 HO.
Although not quite the beast like the 421 Super Duty - a hardcore 11.0 and 12.0:1 compression race engine- the 421 HO was a more suitable mill for street driving, boasting Tri-Power and 10.75:1 compression. The engine was much more streetable, and still churned out a massive 370 hp and over 460 lb-ft of torque.

I think there were 267 Built

[sdbob]

What I heard for the unibody Chryslers.They would put lead weights in the frame that were greased good. The weights would slide forward (equal weight on front)then apon first burnout would slide to the rear for drag racing traction. Then scale check hit the brakes to slide forward.

[Hesster1977]

The XP833 Concept Car.
A mid 60's Pontiac 2 seater, that bit the dust as the Bean Counters and the Vette Platform said "no way".

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Hesster1977

Here is a Article from the Pontiac Mag, August '83, on the "Rise and Fall of the GTO". Cool back history on the development with the GM players Wangers (came up with the idea for the GTO in 1962), Estes, and DeLorean.

Pages 1 - 3.

Just to be clear - Mr Wangers was never a PMD employee.

He worked for the advertising agency with the Pontiac account, which was McManus, John and Adams.

The idea for putting the 389 cu in engine in an intermediate sized vehicle came as a result of a Saturday morning hoist review, where the vehicle chief engineer pitched the idea to DeLorean.

Incidentally, at the time of my retirement, we were still doing these hoist review/brain storming sessions at Milford. If I had been there that day, they both would have turned to me and said "...when can we drive it?".

K

[Hesster1977]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Just to be clear - Mr Wangers was never a PMD employee.

He worked for the advertising agency with the Pontiac account, which was McManus, John and Adams.

The idea for putting the 389 cu in engine in an intermediate sized vehicle came as a result of a Saturday morning hoist review, where the vehicle chief engineer pitched the idea to DeLorean.

Incidentally, at the time of my retirement, we were still doing these hoist review/brain storming sessions at Milford. If I had been there that day, they both would have turned to me and said "...when can we drive it?".

K

That is great clarification, and input Mr. Seymore. I missed that detail in the story, and always assumed Wangers was a GM man and "Mr. GTO" given all of the articles and spotlight he received. But - on page 1 of the attachments, it says "worked for the division as a product planner", and "Chief AD Man over at Pontiac's AD Agency". So that is confusing? Exactly what part did he play?

[Hesster1977]

The "Top 10 Best Pontiacs Built in the 60's".

Man - could we argue the subjective ranking in this list?

I am not a '60's expert, although I did own a '67 Tempest OHC 6 as my 2nd vehicle, and it kicked serious A** cause it was so light and handled fantastic. I totaled it

And I remember as a little shaver my Dad (worked for GM) would bring home Tri-power Bonnies and Cats, and they would go almost 25 MPH w/o stepping on the gas pedal, and he loved scaring the crap out of me and the Bro.. Guess the idle was pretty high?