[north]

Saw this on Hemmings today, a clone 69 TA ragtop. The seller states it is a clone so I'm not making any accusations but the PHS posted is quite something. Obviously forged, thankfully not done properly.

For one thing it is a Lordstown car, no TA's made there due to timing, secondly it has a six cylinder VIN, it has a 4spd listed on the PHS but the car is automatic and it even has a 2 speed automatic shifter. Also the trim tag and the car itself have a standard blue interior but the PHS has the code and option for the custom blue interior.

Lastly the PHS indicates a rarer than rare roof painted the same color as the lower body (CC), never saw this on a convertible before. However the car itself has a blue convertible top and the trim tag indicates it should have a white convertible top.

I didn't both to see if the totals add up. The dealer it was supposedly sold to is in San Jose but given that the Van Nuys plant was operating when this car was actually built and that the font on that part of the PHS has the same suspicious look as the option list perhaps the car wasn't sold in California.

[thews]

Originally Posted by north

Saw this on Hemmings today, a clone 69 TA ragtop. The seller states it is a clone so I'm not making any accusations but the PHS posted is quite something. Obviously forged, thankfully not done properly.

For one thing it is a Lordstown car, no TA's made there due to timing, secondly it has a six cylinder VIN, it has a 4spd listed on the PHS but the car is automatic and it even has a 2 speed automatic shifter. Also the trim tag and the car itself have a standard blue interior but the PHS has the code and option for the custom blue interior.

Lastly the PHS indicates a rarer than rare roof painted the same color as the lower body (CC), never saw this on a convertible before. However the car itself has a blue convertible top and the trim tag indicates it should have a white convertible top.

I didn't both to see if the totals add up. The dealer it was supposedly sold to is in San Jose but given that the Van Nuys plant was operating when this car was actually built and that the font on that part of the PHS has the same suspicious look as the option list perhaps the car wasn't sold in California.

If the PHS is fake then I smell a rat. I see a lot of cars on eBay that state "69 Trans AM" in the title, but you have read deep into the listing to a spot that states it's a clone. There's more fake Judges out there than real ones and if the listing is fishy in any way, then the seller knows it's fishy. JMHO.

[north]

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds...d/2577893.html

Here is the listing, as I said they do say it’s a clone. I just find it funny that they show a doctored PHS.

[will slow gto]

Wow, $125k for a clone… Since when does $125k not ‘break the bank’?

“Here is your opportunity to own one of these example's of Pontiac provenance…”

Also, not sure how one claims provenance in an advertisement for a clone. But then again it’s been said used car salesmen will say just about anything.

[imposter]

not a bad looking car, but what are those lines on top of the shroud for

[thews]

Originally Posted by north

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds...d/2577893.html

Here is the listing, as I said they do say it’s a clone. I just find it funny that they show a doctored PHS.

It's actually a nice looking car, but highly misleading IMO. The pic of the "on loan from Dr..." to a museum is BS as it makes it look real like the bogus PHS docs. I wouldn't touch this car with a listing like this, because you never know what other tricks are up the seller's sleeve. Worth noting the WQ engine is cool, but my guess it it's a restamp.

[Fourthirteen]

Originally Posted by imposter

not a bad looking car, but what are those lines on top of the shroud for

Trans cooler, maybe?

[b-man]

Originally Posted by Fourthirteen

Trans cooler, maybe?

Power steering fluid cooling.

The line is made of steel not aluminum.

I had a ‘69 400 4-speed coupe equipped that way, the drivetrain was 100% original.

[imposter]

obvisouly on some sort of consignment as it has fresh NY tags on the windshield but selling from MA who knows about the lines its on the wrong side for trans coolers

[north]

Starting with a six banger was a big mistake. Having the six in the VIN makes for an extra dirty feel to it being a clone.

The other question is how many corners were cut in the resto.

Given that regular Firebird ragtops (say 350 cars) in this shape now pull way into the $30’s I wonder what the premium here is for the TA clone look?

Given todays prices, I can see someone who just wants the look paying $50-60k maybe? What do you guys think?

The ultimate lesson here is if you are looking at a pricey car, get your own PHS even if the seller provides one. If the guy who doctored this one knew his stuff in terms of PHS info you’d never notice the doctoring from a photoshop point of view.

[FrankieT/A]

Originally Posted by b-man

Power steering fluid cooling.

The line is made of steel not aluminum.

I had a ‘69 400 4-speed coupe equipped that way, the drivetrain was 100% original.

What he said...

[johnta1]

The cowl tag has 'D80' (plus an 'A' ?) on it, which the tag may be aftermarket.

[OCMDGTO]

Reason 1,000,001 some of us can't get into the matching numbers/OCD obsession

[mysticmissle]

i am not too far from this car if anyone is interested, i would be happy to go look at it.

[John V.]

I realize it's been a few weeks since the last post, but I was bored and came across this thread.

I'll add a few thoughts.

The VIN is most likely original to the car. The VIN car was final assembled at Lordstown. I believe the Time Built code matching the VIN may have been 11A.

I have logged 223679U601717 but unfortunately I did not log the Time Built code for that entry so can only estimate the Time Built code from the very few 6 cyl builds I've logged from Lordstown.

The Invoice No. PLB844738 would have been for a Firebird shipped on 7/7/69 as noted on the bogus PHS.

There is no plausible way that U601719 was invoiced on that date and in any event, the Invoice No. for it would have a Lordstown prefix such as PUA or PUB, not the Van Nuys PLB prefix from the bogus PHS.

My guess, the PHS record was for a Van Nuys produced real TA Convert and the VIN was perhaps the only thing that was doctored. The Smoke Signals story stated that many of the TA parts were taken from a TA coupe being parted in the '90s. Possibly that TA is the source of the PHS VIN record although it would have required additional doctoring beyond the VIN (Model, Base Price, etc.).

The real VIN matching the PHS and Invoice No. would have been very close to L119000.

The Data Plate may reflect original coding with the exception of the D80A. As noted, Lordstown Firebird production ended in March '69 and Trans Am production began in May '69. So a TA purported to be from Lordstown is clearly bogus.

The Body No. LOR514452 would make sense for a Lordstown 11-A (Nov '68) build. The PHS record for the VIN would determine if the Paint and Trim codes were correct for that VIN.

But the D80A was never coded on a Lordstown Data Plate.

All that aside, it is a beautiful car. Tough for me to estimate value because the auto trans is an absolute deal breaker for me. Had it been a 4 spd I would be hard pressed to question the asking price.

I think it may have been a mistake to have swapped out the original Data Plate. I'd rather that the car had retained its born with Data Plate.

I also would guess that OHC6 fans would be bummed to think that a low mileage OHC6 'bird was converted to TA spec.

A '69 TA convert is uber rare. But how many '69 OHC6 'bird converts do you see these days? I wonder if the original driveline was retained?

Doctoring the PHS is questionable. I can't think of any reason to do that other than to deceive. You could display an undoctored TA PHS and claim this car was restored to resemble it. But when you change the VIN on the PHS, you are attempting to suggest the record is for the car as built.

The buyer will eventually establish the value. 25 years ago who among us foresaw some of the selling prices we've seen lately? No matter what price this car changes hands for today, nobody knows if that will be considered highway robbery or a bargain a decade from now.

[ts3189]

This car was at 2019 poci in Gettysburg . I believe the gentlemen who owned it was bill lado from New York ,also had a 67 bird convertible.

[north]

I just checked my 69 Fbird PHS listing. coincidentally I have a Van Nuys TA hardtop PHS shipped the same day as this PHS. The invoice number is within 200 so John V is probably right that they just used a real TA PHS. However the invoice total doesn't add up (about $140 spread) so the bottom section of the PHS doesn't match the rest of it mathematically for some reason, perhaps he also added or subtracted options from the PHS he used. Also I looked up the six bangers in my listing from Lordtown and that VIN would indicate a build in the first half of November 68.

[einstein]

Originally Posted by John V.

I have logged 223679U601717 but unfortunately I did not log the Time Built code for that entry so can only estimate the Time Built code from the very few 6 cyl builds I've logged from Lordstown.

The Invoice No. PLB844738 would have been for a Firebird shipped on 7/7/69 as noted on the bogus PHS.

There is no plausible way that U601719 was invoiced on that date and in any event, the Invoice No. for it would have a Lordstown prefix such as PUA or PUB, not the Van Nuys PLB prefix from the bogus PHS.

My guess, the PHS record was for a Van Nuys produced real TA Convert and the VIN was perhaps the only thing that was doctored. The Smoke Signals story stated that many of the TA parts were taken from a TA coupe being parted in the '90s. Possibly that TA is the source of the PHS VIN record although it would have required additional doctoring beyond the VIN (Model, Base Price, etc.).

The real VIN matching the PHS and Invoice No. would have been very close to L119000.

The Data Plate may reflect original coding with the exception of the D80A. As noted, Lordstown Firebird production ended in March '69 and Trans Am production began in May '69. So a TA purported to be from Lordstown is clearly bogus.

The Body No. LOR514452 would make sense for a Lordstown 11-A (Nov '68) build. The PHS record for the VIN would determine if the Paint and Trim codes were correct for that VIN.

I believe all 8 convert TAs were Norwood built.

All 20 Van Nuys built TAs were coupes. I owned one many years ago, VIN was in the L119xxx range, was the second one in the sequence. I believe the one before was on the L118xxx range.

My 69 Firebird Sprint convertible was built in mid-December 1968 and has a VIN over U603xxx. I also, for a time, owned a 69 OHC6 non-Sprint coupe VIN U604000 which I parted out in the 90s. As I recall, it was built in mid-March 1969.

[north]

The more I look at the PHS the more obvious it is that it is a Frankenstein. A CC color code is not possible with a convertible, Keycodes indicate april or later invoice date but the base price of $3,028 was only the base price until dec 31st 1968. The invoice prefix has the wrong plant code and the numerical part is right for a July 69 invoice. As I mentioned the invoices and base price are not adding up correctly either.

I think there are 3 PHS's involved; The original 6 banger early Lordstown built car, a July Van Nuys TA coupe and then the bottom section which comes from a high option earlier car (Shipping cost to San Jose changed in April and this is the earlier amount and almost 5,000 is way to high for a six banger ragtop and $140 higher than a TA coupe with those options.

[John V.]

north, I think you are probably correct.

I checked thru my limited '69 TA invoices. Couple things stand out.

The Optional Local Advertising Association Collection is coded 237 which is correct for a Zone 23 dealer, All American is in Zone 23. So they could have been the dealer matched to the listed options TA.

But as you say, the modest list of options doesn't total up to a $4991.02 Invoice.

So perhaps the $4991.02 'bird was invoiced to another Zone 23 dealer or conceivably the same dealer but a more heavily optioned TA coupe. Or vice versa.

einstein points out that no TA converts built at Van Nuys. I also noticed that the Power Top option was not included. I don't have any TA convert Invoices but I'm thinking they most likely got Power Tops. Certainly all of the '69 'bird converts that I have Invoice copies for seem to all have been ordered with the Power Top. No idea if the clone here got the Power Top in OHC6 guise or had it added in the TA conversion but if either is true, would have been smart to have listed it on the fabricated record.

The individual SRPs for all the listed options do match to what I have for July invoiced 'birds and TAs. The Dealer Amount for the Custom Trim threw me at first, at an earlier point the SRP was same but the Amount was 57.00, in July however it was 58.50.

Not sure if the TA option was same price for the convert and coupe but in July the listed pricing matches real TA invoices.

Best I could tell, the Firebird Convert base price was $3028 in Nov '68 so that would have been the base price of the VIN convert when it was built.

Not sure of the convert price in July, best I could find looks like was $2989.

Looks like Head Restraints became standard content after Dec for a Base Price increase of $17, then later some decontenting resulted in a Base Price reduction.

The 'bird coupe Base Price was $2759 in July.

So a coupe with an SRP of $4991.02 would mean at least $300 more in options than listed on the fabricated Invoice.

Assuming the $4991.02 was a high option pre-April car, I'm thinking it could not have been a TA. Perhaps it was a high option 400HO build. And conceivably a convert. So trying to figure out the option content for the $4991.02 build would be very challenging.

Wonder why the guy didn't just use the total nos. for the TA with the listed options? Perhaps he wanted the total to reflect a convertible while the coupe option list gave him the TA line item?

Who knows? Frankenstein is an apt description of the Invoice.

I've been wondering, what would an equally nice but matching nos. OHC6 convert be valued at in the current market? How much would the Sprint add? 4 spd add? Leno certainly was interested in the OHC6 and he went a bit restomod.

Forgetting the fact that owners should build the car the way they will enjoy it regardless of investment potential, from an investment standpoint, does the owner figure to do better having produced a very nice facsimile of a '69 TA convert or could he have gotten as good or better return on a factory original OHC6 convert. I'm thinking the TA is the easier choice because of repro support.

Curious what you '69 fans think about that build choice.