[The Champ]

Originally Posted by HoovDaddy

Saw the Buick Avista concept a few years ago, if GM built that, it would get me back into a new GM vehicle again.

GM already makes something better than that, assuming you can accept 4 doors.

Check out the CT4/CT5 Sport or V series from Cadillac.



These cars handle extremely well, have good power with the CT4 Sport versions 237 HP 2.0L turbo. If you want more power, the V Series will give you a 325 HP 2.7L turbo . If even more power is needed, the V Blackwing has a 472HP 3.6L twin turbo and a 6 speed manual available.

The CT5 Sport comes with the same 2.0L turbo as the CT4. But the V series has a 360 HP 3.0L twin turbo and the V Blackwing comes with a 668 HP 6.2L V8 supercharged V8 and also has the 6 speed manual available.

I have a 2021 CT4 Sport as my daily driver now, which replaced my 2014 ATS. I loved my ATS so much I purchased the new CT4 (new version of the ATS).

I expected it to be a very nice replacement, but was rewarded with a much better vehicle in virtually every aspect. It handles better, rides better, gets better fuel economy and is even more comfortable.

I think if you take one for a drive, you'll be impressed.

[sdbob]

A guy in our car club just went to Texas to pick up a Blackwing. Why? Where he could get it. Also the dealer has Pontiacs. Also one of the Cadillac engineers has connections to Pontiac. Hmm. The new Blackwing owner told me.

[Sirrotica]

If history repeats, both olds, and Pontiac dropped all their model names that had ties with their history, just before they were axed.

Just something I noticed that has been pointed out to me when all the historic nameplates get dropped, so does the division. Seems like that may have already happened.

Chevy has SUVs, why do they need buick SUVs too? There they go with redundancy of divisions, which was the excuse for Pontiac being dropped.

Drop buick, and they can change the corporate name to, cadillac, and chevrolet corporation, C&CC......... Do away with the GM branding, just before it is dropped. Seems fitting to me.

[1965gp]

I agree the Aztec was ugly, but man if you were an outdoorsy person it had everything for you. I think it even had an air compressor in the back for floats and bike tires? The Aztec wasn’t built for us- it was built for a GenZ that wants to go camping with their partner and two dogs….. just 15 years too early. They would have skyrocketed during Covid as a cheap RV. No uglier than the sprinter type vans people are dumping 50k in to make them mini RV’s. The Aztec probably would have been better off as a Saturn- or a Subaru.

The new caddy’s look really good, but I can’t get past the price. I drove one as a rental (I’m sure it had the smallest motor) and it sounded like an ‘82 Honda Civic. I was expecting all kinds of standard features but was disappointed. No adaptive cruise control, doors didn’t unlock when you walk up to it with the key, little things like that. Maybe the Blackwing has those options though.

Pontiac connection- my 2002 SLP Firehawk came with the ‘Blackwing’ air intake which I think was the 345 hp option

[The Champ]

Bob

You must have had a base model from your rental company as anything other than the base model has adaptive cruise standard. Keyless entry and start is standard on all models, so I don't know what the deal was with your rental. As to sound, there is no way I'd compare the 2.0L turbo sounds like an '82 Honda. Maybe you need a hearing aid adjustment (just kidding).

As to pricing, what price were you looking for? A decently equipped 2.0L turbo Honda Accord (you brought up Honda) is going to be over $39,000.

The CT4 Premium Luxury model with the 2.0L turbo is under $41,000 and has keyless entry, adaptive cruise control, enhanced emergency braking, reverse automatic braking, automatic headlights, rainsense wipers, 8 way power passenger seat and many other standard features that are optional or simply not available on the base model.

[mzbk2l]

Originally Posted by The Champ

GM already makes something better than that, assuming you can accept 4 doors.

I have a 2021 CT4 Sport as my daily driver now, which replaced my 2014 ATS. I loved my ATS so much I purchased the new CT4 (new version of the ATS).

Nice! I was looking for a CTS-V, drove an ATS sport and ALMOST decided I could go with the smaller car (I'm 6'5"), but ended up grabbing a CT6-V and haven't regretted it for a minute.

[Formulabruce]

1. GMC ( truck) is an RPO on a chevy. Look at the glove box sticker. I still prefer the design/ options on the GMC.
2. Buicks made in China
3. Chevy small SUV made in Mexico.
4. Ram full size truck 100% Mexico.
5. Pontiac G2. Mexico.
6. Enron mess killed GM. Pontiac, Saturn, etc. ( Glass-Stegal )
7. OPH is right about the Aztec grill, BUT, the utility of that vehicle really impressed people that actually got inside one. Honda sold a ton of the " element" which is NOT a looker.
8. we want a stylish car, folks today care about reliable and color, thats pretty much it.

[RocktimusPryme]

I would have thought they could survive on just that little Encore. My GF has one. They are everywhere around here.

FWIW I had a 2011 turbo GS with a 6 speed. I believe it was just a rebadged Opel, but it was a fun car for a driver.

[242177P]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

8. we want a stylish car, folks today care about reliable and color, thats pretty much it.

True. But even the most utilitarian of vehicles should have at least a basic element of curb appeal. Chrysler's Neon would never have sold as well as it did if it wasn't cute. Before that, there was Volkswagen's ubiquitous Beetle.

Thing is the Aztek didn't have to be ugly. If you look at some of the different elements on their own, none of them have that weird "Aztek" vibe. It's as if the design staff was broken into different teams, and sequestered to prevent collaboration. And at some point a thoroughly besotted Doc Frankenstein officiated over several shotgun weddings.



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[1965gp]

I’m sure that my rental car was as stripped down as possible- and for 45k I guess I shouldn’t expect those features but the engine noise was noticeable enough that both myself and my dad commented on it several times. Mostly under acceleration getting on a highway.

My issue with price is the CT5 Blackwing. It’s supposed to be the best of the best. I checked and they are selling for 105k to 135k in my market.

That’s 35-40k more than a jailbreak Hellcat with 797 hp. It has always seemed to me GM tries to hit a 5 yr old mark, and charge a premium for it. If Cadillac is going to be their performance brand and sell for 30% more than their competitor I expect bragging rights.

Jeremy

Jeremy

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by 242177P

True. But even the most utilitarian of vehicles should have at least a basic element of curb appeal. Chrysler's Neon would never have sold as well as it did if it wasn't cute. Before that, there was Volkswagen's ubiquitous Beetle.

Thing is the Aztek didn't have to be ugly. If you look at some of the different elements on their own, none of them have that weird "Aztek" vibe. It's as if the design staff was broken into different teams, and sequestered to prevent collaboration. And at some point a thoroughly besotted Doc Frankenstein officiated over several shotgun weddings.



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My favorite quote that I always go to concerning the Aztek at it's reveal. The automotive press was brutal as can be expected. But the quote that really sums it up and references the above post is: "It looks like the Aztek was designed by a group of prisoners who whittled it out of a bar of soap". That perfectly sums up the look.
The Buick version is also exactly why they can go ahead and shutter the division. They took the horribly disfigured Aztek, rounded off all the sharp edges and made a generic blob out of it. So now you have a slightly converted minivan made into a generic blob that has no appeal or emotional response from anyone. A perfect example of how two divisions of a giant corporation approached a new vehicle design. Both horrible failures. China bailed out Buick, well, we know what happened to Pontiac. Yea, still bitter.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by 1965gp

I’m sure that my rental car was as stripped down as possible- and for 45k I guess I shouldn’t expect those features but the engine noise was noticeable enough that both myself and my dad commented on it several times. Mostly under acceleration getting on a highway.

My issue with price is the CT5 Blackwing. It’s supposed to be the best of the best. I checked and they are selling for 105k to 135k in my market.

That’s 35-40k more than a jailbreak Hellcat with 797 hp. It has always seemed to me GM tries to hit a 5 yr old mark, and charge a premium for it. If Cadillac is going to be their performance brand and sell for 30% more than their competitor I expect bragging rights.

Jeremy

Jeremy

Jeremy

The Current base unit is not $45,000. They start under $35,000.

A $45,000 one would have most, if not all, the features you were looking for.

As to the engine sound, was it actually an ATS (If so, a base unit would have been even less)? The ATS looks very much like the CT4/CT5, but had a non turbo 4 banger as the base engine. That engine was significantly less powerful and would have been in a very stripped down model.

As to the cost of the Blackwing, you do understand that these a extremely low production hand built cars, don't you?

There is so much more that comes with the Blackwing over the Hellcat.

Here is a comparison between the CT5 Blackwing and the Hellcat. The top video is 9 minutes long, but very interesting.

https://www.motor1.com/news/623716/c...-hellcat-race/

[1965gp]

I didn’t know the car was hand built- I will have to watch the video. I admit I don’t know much about them. I would assume the engines are hand built similar to my 96 Cobra and 89 TTA.

You may be right- I might have been driving a 35k Cadillac where you would be right- my expectations would be too high. I honestly didn’t know the offered one in that range- I wonder why?

Still, for me it just doesn’t scream top of the food chain. I can say my 50th anniversary Hellcat widebody (that’s a terribly long name) is one of 500, one of 106 in blue, real carbon fiber trim throughout blah blah blah…. But when you see it and hear it the car sounds downright scary. Much like the 98-02 WS6 cars.

It’s quite possible that I am just not a GM targeted customer anymore. I have friends that love their GM cars and trucks and they just don’t seem to fit me anymore. The Cadillac may just be too refined for me. I’m not a Cadillac customer and probably won’t be.

Still, I’m anxious to watch the video because having not driven the car I am really just guessing and going off power figures and dollars.

[unruhjonny]

The video is good, but the guy is obviously biased towards his Caddy;
I am not a fan of roll racing, but it's generally accepted that the two cars line up at the same speed then the designated driver taps his horn twice - and on the second horn tap, both cars run;
In the 50 & 80 rolls, there was no horn tapping, and it appeared to me that the Caddy had the jump on the Challenger for the 80 roll - which, "surprise, surprise", he won.
I found it interesting that the two cars have torque figures so close.
During the (proper) drag racing, it was apparent which car had more power, as it would simply pull away.

[1965gp]

I love the bright blue CT5. Looks really good, I’ve never seen one in a color like that. Seats look great as well. I see that they note the engine is hand built which is similar to some other limited edition cars. The Cadillac did much better than I expected in the race. Still not my cup of tea but I have more respect for it now.

Here is a video comparing the Charger red eye to the CT5 Blackwing and a Lexus. I think the red eye is more of a price point competitor to the Blackwing. They clearly state the Blackwing is faster on the track, and complain about the all season tires on the Hellcat. I can attest to that both of our Hellcats felt completely different after putting high end tires on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTKs9Ia1uJ0

Everything they say about the Charger is what I like about it. Just obnoxious. The CT5 may just be too refined for me.

[The Champ]

The difference between the standing start results is probably the inherent advantage from the auto in the Hellcat vs the stick in the Blackwing.

Back in the day, a manual was faster. But the modern automatic has proven to be faster.

I still prefer a manual transmission and don't really care about drag racing results. I'd rather be carving canyon roads.

[kingbuzzo]

https://www.autoblog.com/2022/11/29/...esign-drawing/

[59safaricat]

The way a Buick should look and feel. Massive, quiet, comfortable, with a pillow soft suspension.

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by The Champ

GM already makes something better than that, assuming you can accept 4 doors.

Check out the CT4/CT5 Sport or V series from Cadillac.



These cars handle extremely well, have good power with the CT4 Sport versions 237 HP 2.0L turbo. If you want more power, the V Series will give you a 325 HP 2.7L turbo . If even more power is needed, the V Blackwing has a 472HP 3.6L twin turbo and a 6 speed manual available.

The CT5 Sport comes with the same 2.0L turbo as the CT4. But the V series has a 360 HP 3.0L twin turbo and the V Blackwing comes with a 668 HP 6.2L V8 supercharged V8 and also has the 6 speed manual available.

I have a 2021 CT4 Sport as my daily driver now, which replaced my 2014 ATS. I loved my ATS so much I purchased the new CT4 (new version of the ATS).

I expected it to be a very nice replacement, but was rewarded with a much better vehicle in virtually every aspect. It handles better, rides better, gets better fuel economy and is even more comfortable.

I think if you take one for a drive, you'll be impressed.

You think that ct4/ct5 in that upper picture is better than that picture of the Avista? Now I haven’t driven a CT5 BUT , That’s exactly what I was talking about they draw something as nice as that avista and it ends up
Looking like that FUGLY CT5 That thing looks like a Chevy citation from
The 80s. What a turd . That’s exactly the kind of thing that makes me NOT buy a GM product. It’s clunky , lines don’t flow, the panel joints stick out like a sore thumb

You’re certainly entitled to your opinion but I’m entitled to mine as well and I see no comparison in looks between those two cars .

My brother did have a GM car that was pretty good looking like the drawings the olds aurora , I think it was and that oddly didn’t sell that well but it was a great car. Actually I looked back at the aroura and that was fugly too.

[turbo69bird]

This is why I bought a dodge (never bought a dodge except for trucks before) but its way better looking than that. IMO. And it’s less money, faster and more utility. And it’s SLOW compared to our Tesla ! Feels
Like a chevette w 710 hp after driving the Tesla w 1020 hp all
Torque electric. Would have liked to have bought GM (preferably Pontiac) but they make Nothing worth buying IMO