#21  
Old 12-04-2022, 12:56 AM
77 TRASHCAN's Avatar
77 TRASHCAN 77 TRASHCAN is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: 31May2013 Temporary home to the world's widest (that we know of) tornado. Lord, NO more Please...
Posts: 6,591
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
That's the other end of this dilemma that I didn't bother to mention.

Oil pressure and oil does play a small roll in the end result. We all know engines can live a happy life with low idle oil pressure, but it can have an affect on hydraulic lifter noise, especially these days with the internal tolerances and bleed down rates on these lifters that can be all over the place. Questionable bleed down rates are only exaggerated with low oil pressure at idle.

Also related is how many of these lifter companies used to preach that hydraulic roller lifters should be run with 10-30 oil. While I never found that necessary, that suggestion was years ago long before bleed down rates became an issue. Now with questionable internal tolerances I think it goes without saying.

Or how different brand oils may not hold their viscosity as well as others.

Maybe none of this will help, but looks like there can be a lot of things at play. Shouldn't be this way but it's what we have.
What weight oil do you run in your HR lifter engines, or are all of yours hybrids?

I had a recent conversation with Paul Carter. He's been using the newest CC HR lifters. They have the oil hole in the correct location, no need to perform the small grinding mod in the lifter bore, that Paul helped us with. He had no bad words for these newest HR lifters. Thanks. PAUL!!!

__________________
1977 Black Trans Am 180 HP Auto, essentially base model T/A.
I'm the original owner, purchased May 7, 1977.

Shut it off
Shut it off
Buddy, I just shut your Prius down...
  #22  
Old 12-04-2022, 10:13 AM
78w72 78w72 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: iowa
Posts: 4,683
Default

i run 10/30 on my CC "S" lifters based on what comp & SD suggested. they both suggested the seafoam on the early style lifters that were tickers but it made no difference for me. i use 10/30 based on my engine builders recommendation for an engine built mainly for the street, 20-25 psi at hot idle.

  #23  
Old 12-04-2022, 10:42 AM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,794
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grivera View Post
Thanks Jason

Larry- are you saying 10W30 is better when dealing with sloppy tolerances?
My thought is that it would make it worse. I know decades ago they used to tell us that's what they wanted in their lifters, back when those internal tolerances were tight and not an issue, and it's been talked about here occasionally, but with loose tolerances these days I tend to think that really doesn't hold much water anymore.

I don't mean to say thicker will fix the problem, but it stands to reason the thin stuff they used to preach probably isn't helping the matter with what we have to work with now.

It could be a whole number of little things that might help the situation, or not.

I agree adjustment is a big player, and many ways to do it. Bottoming the lifter might be the solution, although I've never had to do that myself, but many here have with success.

Playing a smaller roll would be oil pressure, oil viscosity, and even brand of oil. On a lesser scale some of the noise could be the choice of roller rocker as well.

__________________
2019 Pontiac Heaven class winner

https://youtu.be/XqEydRRRwqE
  #24  
Old 12-04-2022, 12:10 PM
78w72 78w72 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: iowa
Posts: 4,683
Default

comp & other places like SD still suggest 10/30 for hyd roller lifters today.

their reasoning is inline with using a thinner vs overly thick oil in engines not dedicated for racing purposes or high heat desert type use as long as it provides adequate psi. oil flow in/out of bearings & lifters is more important than having too thick of oil thinking it provides more of a "cushion".

of course there are variables in different types/brands of oils, a thicker synthetic will usually cold pour better than a slightly thinner conventional, but as a general suggestion most places suggest 10/30 for these modern hyd roller lifters as well as engines built to "street" tolerances. if you have noisy lifters its easy to experiment with a slightly thicker oil like 10/40, 15/40 or even 20/50 if youre in a hotter climate.

  #25  
Old 12-04-2022, 12:26 PM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,794
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 78w72 View Post
comp & other places like SD still suggest 10/30 for hyd roller lifters today.

their reasoning is inline with using a thinner vs overly thick oil in engines not dedicated for racing purposes or high heat desert type use as long as it provides adequate psi. oil flow in/out of bearings & lifters is more important than having too thick of oil thinking it provides more of a "cushion".

of course there are variables in different types/brands of oils, a thicker synthetic will usually cold pour better than a slightly thinner conventional, but as a general suggestion most places suggest 10/30 for these modern hyd roller lifters as well as engines built to "street" tolerances. if you have noisy lifters its easy to experiment with a slightly thicker oil like 10/40, 15/40 or even 20/50 if youre in a hotter climate.
Yes, but I believe they are a little behind the times or in denial.

My point is they've been suggesting that for decades, way back when lifters and internal clearances and tolerances weren't an issue. Even though I never found thicker to be a problem, the thinner stuff would also make sense, "IF" you have a properly built lifter that bleeds down correctly. And therein lies the problem.

The whole issue I have now with this deal, these days we've heard all the complaints of internal lifter tolerances being all over the map, bleed down rates that are absolutely horrible and everyone bottoming out adjustment to take the bleed down problems out of the equation. So I don't really care who says they still recommend thinner oil because in theory, the lifter isn't going to like thin oil if the tolerances aren't tight and honestly thick oil viscosity isn't going to be as much of a concern anymore.

I'm speaking of just lifters for sake of this discussion, not taking into account other engine clearances.

__________________
2019 Pontiac Heaven class winner

https://youtu.be/XqEydRRRwqE
  #26  
Old 12-04-2022, 12:58 PM
78w72 78w72 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: iowa
Posts: 4,683
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
Yes, but I believe they are a little behind the times or in denial.

My point is they've been suggesting that for decades, way back when lifters and internal clearances and tolerances weren't an issue. Even though I never found thicker to be a problem, the thinner stuff would also make sense, "IF" you have a properly built lifter that bleeds down correctly. And therein lies the problem.

The whole issue I have now with this deal, these days we've heard all the complaints of internal lifter tolerances being all over the map, bleed down rates that are absolutely horrible and everyone bottoming out adjustment to take the bleed down problems out of the equation. So I don't really care who says they still recommend thinner oil because in theory, the lifter isn't going to like thin oil if the tolerances aren't tight and honestly thick oil viscosity isn't going to be as much of a concern anymore.

I'm speaking of just lifters for sake of this discussion, not taking into account other engine clearances.
i cant say if they are behind the times or in denial but i trust what comp or other reputable builders suggest to use. what they suggested decades ago for FT lifters is probably different than todays suggestion for current hyd roller lifters. im sure these companies or builders take into account the tolerances of the lifters, if a thicker oil was better for them im sure that would be whats suggested if it improved noise issues & kept customers happy with less returns.

in my experience the comp "s" lifters like thinner 10/30 oil, i dont have any major noise issues, just a slight tick when fully hot & that could be from the alum heads expanding, i plan to try tightening the adjustment a little or using cliffs procedure if it bothers me enough. but even when fully heat soaked its hit or miss if it is noticeable, could be the roller rockers making some the noise too?

compared to the 1st set of the older comp lifters, the newer "s" lifters comp replaced them with are very close to silent 90% of the time, when they do make a little noise its about the same as my comp XE FT cam/lifters in another car.

  #27  
Old 12-04-2022, 01:11 PM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,794
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 78w72 View Post
i cant say if they are behind the times or in denial but i trust what comp or other reputable builders suggest to use. what they suggested decades ago for FT lifters is probably different than todays suggestion for current hyd roller lifters. im sure these companies or builders take into account the tolerances of the lifters, if a thicker oil was better for them im sure that would be whats suggested if it improved noise issues & kept customers happy with less returns.

in my experience the comp "s" lifters like thinner 10/30 oil, i dont have any major noise issues, just a slight tick when fully hot & that could be from the alum heads expanding, i plan to try tightening the adjustment a little or using cliffs procedure if it bothers me enough. but even when fully heat soaked its hit or miss if it is noticeable, could be the roller rockers making some the noise too?

compared to the 1st set of the older comp lifters, the newer "s" lifters comp replaced them with are very close to silent 90% of the time, when they do make a little noise its about the same as my comp XE FT cam/lifters in another car.
Couple things. They suggested decades ago the thinner oil for hydraulic roller lifters, not the flat tappets. What people seem to miss, we had better quality then with tight internal tolerances. Not so much today.

The problem with lifter manufactures still suggesting this thin oil today, is they are in denial that there is even a lifter problem, so for anyone to still take their suggestions on oil viscosity seems a little sketchy to say the least. How can we listen to a cam manufacture tell us we still need 10-30 oil in our hydraulic rollers when they won't admit they have a manufacture defect?? See what I mean?

I'm not saying one is right or wrong, but there is definitely some questionable stuff here worth looking at.

__________________
2019 Pontiac Heaven class winner

https://youtu.be/XqEydRRRwqE

Last edited by Formulajones; 12-04-2022 at 01:17 PM.
The Following User Says Thank You to Formulajones For This Useful Post:
  #28  
Old 12-04-2022, 02:05 PM
grivera's Avatar
grivera grivera is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Just south of Baltimore
Posts: 4,890
Default

Ok - so yesterday I checked things out and the noise is definitely from the passenger side. While I was in there I tried Cliff’s method - went through the firing order for intake and exhaust. Bottomed out each lifter and then backed out one full turn. It still ticks at 800 rpm idle. It doesn’t tick at highway idle so I assume they are pumping up with more RPM. Oil pressure at hot idle is 30, cruising RPM is 60 psi, high idle cold is ~70 psi. Oil is 10W30.

It also occurred to me - over a month ago I did a compression test (cold) on this engine and then a leak down test (hot). The compression on #6 cylinder was 175 psi and all others were 150- 155 psi. The engine has 9.3 compression.

Here are the leak-down test results done with engine at full temperature, all plugs out and each cylinder tested at TDC. Left hand gauge at 90 PSI

1 = 86 psi
8= 84 psi
4= 85 psi
3= 85 psi
6= 84 psi (this is the cylinder with high compression)
5= 85 psi
7= 84 psi
2 = 84 psi

Could the higher compression reading on #6 be the result of the lifter(s) bleeding down on low rpm and not opening the valves enough- and therefore not releasing cylinder pressure at the same rate as the others?

Some videos of idle RPM vs high idle during cold start-up. Ignore the loose PS pump belt…

Idle RPM: https://youtu.be/G47H3BL1s_U

Hi idle: https://youtu.be/nko8XB4-nqc

__________________
Will Rivera

'69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears
'64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears
'69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project

Last edited by grivera; 12-04-2022 at 02:24 PM.
  #29  
Old 12-04-2022, 03:30 PM
tom s tom s is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: long beach ca usa
Posts: 18,764
Default

I have always run 10/30 Mobil 1 with my hyd rollers.The latest CC lifters have replaceable cartridge inserts.Made in the USA by a company in the Edelbrock group.They look exactly like the Shaver made CC lifters.Tom

The Following User Says Thank You to tom s For This Useful Post:
  #30  
Old 12-04-2022, 04:00 PM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,794
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom s View Post
I have always run 10/30 Mobil 1 with my hyd rollers.The latest CC lifters have replaceable cartridge inserts.Made in the USA by a company in the Edelbrock group.They look exactly like the Shaver made CC lifters.Tom
I'm anxious to try a set of those on an engine sitting here. Much easier to swap the cartridge, and maybe a good idea to keep a few extra on hand in case of an issue to minimize down time.

__________________
2019 Pontiac Heaven class winner

https://youtu.be/XqEydRRRwqE
  #31  
Old 12-04-2022, 04:25 PM
tom s tom s is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: long beach ca usa
Posts: 18,764
Default

My next engine will have them,just trying to get a 455 out of the shop to deliver to the restoration shop

  #32  
Old 12-04-2022, 09:46 PM
lust4speed's Avatar
lust4speed lust4speed is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Yucaipa, SoCal
Posts: 8,684
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN View Post
...I had a recent conversation with Paul Carter. He's been using the newest CC HR lifters. They have the oil hole in the correct location, no need to perform the small grinding mod in the lifter bore, that Paul helped us with. He had no bad words for these newest HR lifters. Thanks. PAUL!!!
Just to clarify, does Paul have several sets of the new cartridge lifters out in customer cars?

Getting difficult to keep up with Comp. Is it the latest, even more latest, or the last latest lifter...

__________________
Mick Batson
1967 original owner Tyro Blue/black top 4-speed HO GTO with all the original parts stored safely away -- 1965 2+2 survivor AC auto -- 1965 Catalina Safari Wagon in progress.
  #33  
Old 12-04-2022, 10:08 PM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,794
Default

The Comp S (I believe it was called) from 2-3 years ago had the oil band in the correct location. I've had them next to a pair of Pontiac hydraulic rollers from Johnson (sold by Comp) and there was an obvious oil band height difference. Posted pictures of that on here a few times.

No idea what Comp is calling them now.

I'd like to see a picture. Especially if they are those new cartridge style.

__________________
2019 Pontiac Heaven class winner

https://youtu.be/XqEydRRRwqE
  #34  
Old 12-04-2022, 10:24 PM
77 TRASHCAN's Avatar
77 TRASHCAN 77 TRASHCAN is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: 31May2013 Temporary home to the world's widest (that we know of) tornado. Lord, NO more Please...
Posts: 6,591
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lust4speed View Post
Just to clarify, does Paul have several sets of the new cartridge lifters out in customer cars?

Getting difficult to keep up with Comp. Is it the latest, even more latest, or the last latest lifter...
He spoke of testing, not sure if in car or dyno.

__________________
1977 Black Trans Am 180 HP Auto, essentially base model T/A.
I'm the original owner, purchased May 7, 1977.

Shut it off
Shut it off
Buddy, I just shut your Prius down...
  #35  
Old 12-04-2022, 10:40 PM
tom s tom s is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: long beach ca usa
Posts: 18,764
Default

Mick,these are the newest,the ones before were the Shavers and the ones before that were made by Johnson.This goes back at least 15 years.The newest ones look exactly like the Shaver made except for a replaceable cartridge somewhat like a OHC 6.I believe there is a Youtube video on them.Pretty interesting.Tom

  #36  
Old 12-04-2022, 10:43 PM
tom s tom s is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: long beach ca usa
Posts: 18,764
Default

They are called Evolution.Tom

  #37  
Old 12-04-2022, 10:54 PM
jonmachota78's Avatar
jonmachota78 jonmachota78 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Salisbury, IL
Posts: 1,391
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grivera View Post

Could the higher compression reading on #6 be the result of the lifter(s) bleeding down on low rpm and not opening the valves enough- and therefore not releasing cylinder pressure at the same rate as the others?
Colapsed lifter on an intake will definitely cause high compression because it closes the valve early compared to the others. Compression starts when the valve shuts.

__________________
'78 Macho T/A DKM#95, 460cid, SRP pistons, KRE 310 D ports,
3" pypes, Hooker 1 3/4" headers, hydraulic roller,
10" Continental, 3.42 gears
11.5 @117.5mph 3900lbs
([_|_] ##\|/##[_|_])
The Following User Says Thank You to jonmachota78 For This Useful Post:
  #38  
Old 12-04-2022, 11:08 PM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,794
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom s View Post
Mick,these are the newest,the ones before were the Shavers and the ones before that were made by Johnson.This goes back at least 15 years.The newest ones look exactly like the Shaver made except for a replaceable cartridge somewhat like a OHC 6.I believe there is a Youtube video on them.Pretty interesting.Tom
Makes sense, The set of Comp S's with the correct oil band in dad's engine is the Shavers I believe, and the old set of Johnsons bought from Comp probably 15+ years ago that came out of his previous engine are the other set I pictured next to them. Very distinct difference in oil band heights.

The odd part is that up to just a few years ago when you bought Comp lifters you never knew what you'd get in the box until you opened them.

__________________
2019 Pontiac Heaven class winner

https://youtu.be/XqEydRRRwqE
  #39  
Old 12-04-2022, 11:13 PM
JLMounce JLMounce is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Greeley, Colorado
Posts: 3,679
Send a message via AIM to JLMounce
Default

To my knowledge the "Evolution" lifters from comp which appear to have Shaver bodies with a rebuildable cartridge, are not yet available for Pontiac applications.

If you were to buy hydraulic roller lifters for something today, it appears that the Johnson Lifters that can be sourced through Butler are the best available.

__________________
-Jason
1969 Pontiac Firebird
  #40  
Old 12-04-2022, 11:35 PM
grivera's Avatar
grivera grivera is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Just south of Baltimore
Posts: 4,890
Default

JBP allows the Evolution lifters to be added to the sales cart:

https://butlerperformance.com/i-3164...-85701-16.html

__________________
Will Rivera

'69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears
'64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears
'69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:57 AM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017