[63Banshee]

Always get photo evidence of all codes or make a trip to view in person.

[red1975pacer]

Fake PHS? No wonder your buddy got his money back. Now your talking intent by someone {but not limited to the seller} to defraud. Let me guess, the guy who just sold the car claimed he didn't know it was fake.

[north]

They are out there; here is a bogus PHS from eBay a few years ago, surprisingly it was from a 69 Custom S of all things and the fake is obvious from a content point of view but visually you'd never guess it was fake. If he knew better his stuff in terms of how options were coded etc it would be undetectable.

Any high buck car you must pony up to get your own PHS before buying!

[red1975pacer]

Changing PHS's now that's hard core fraud.

[north]

That Custom S was forged into a 350HO. He didn't know the correct option names, prices or sequence but the actual electronic cut and pace is undetectable to my eyes.

[Uncle Judge]

It happens all of the time! Jim Mattison can tell you some horror stories. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, pull your own PHS. It's cheap insurance!

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[red1975pacer]

Would the fraudeters claim that the buyer knew it was fake stand up in court if challenged? That , it would seem, would be the only defense the seller could come up with.

[MRGPHO]

Originally Posted by Uncle Judge

It happens all of the time! Jim Mattison can tell you some horror stories. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, pull your own PHS. It's cheap insurance!

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

That is a shame. Anyone who deliberately forges paperwork should be kicked out of the car club (if they are in one) for life and banned from joining any other car club. That is a good way to chase good people out of a great hobby!
Thanks to everybody who shares this information. I believe the owners name was at one time, William Lake and this white GP was featured in High Performance Pontiac magazine, in the January 2007 issue, (volume 28, No. 1) on pages 36 and 37 and won a 2nd place award in the Grand Prix class. At that time Mr. Lake was from Salisbury, MD and in the magazine he claimed it was 1 of 17 such cars with a 455 and 4 -speed and A/C , which is also probably not correct. It would be interesting to see who exactly did the dirty paper work - it is always done in the name of greed and should be punished.

[Ram4king]

Yes and he pulled the wool over this dealers eyes when he sold it to him so it's told but the dealer has plenty of skeletons in his own closet also. Tuff world anymore

[1oldgoat]

Originally Posted by red1975pacer

Would the fraudeters claim that the buyer knew it was fake stand up in court if challenged? That , it would seem, would be the only defense the seller could come up with.

As a dealer, he would likely lose in court. The court presumes that a dealer is an expert in his field and therefore "should have known" about the fraudulent paperwork. The two states I have worked in for the last 36 years as a dealer, will hold the dealer responsible for these things.

I had a situation a few years ago where a customer traded in a car that had been wrecked and repaired to a very high standard at a reputable body shop. When the car was traded in, the person who traded it had to sign a damage disclosure form. They signed indicating the car had never been damaged.

The Carfax report was clean because the previous owner did not file an insurance claim. The customer I sold the car to was later involved in a minor fender bender with the car. He happened to take it to the same body shop for the minor repair. The body shop told the customer that they had previously repaired the car for someone else. Naturally they were upset because we had given them a clean Carfax.

We made it right for the buyer when we found out about it and took the person who traded it in to us to arbitration. The arbitrator ruled against us because as a dealer we "should have known" about unseen and undetectable previous damage even though the previous owner lied on the damage disclosure form because we are "experts" in the field.

I'm glad your firend was able to get his money back without a lot of hassle. PHS is very cheap insurance!

[red1975pacer]

Good stuff, 1old goat

[MRGPHO]

Originally Posted by 1oldgoat

As a dealer, he would likely lose in court. The court presumes that a dealer is an expert in his field and therefore "should have known" about the fraudulent paperwork. The two states I have worked in for the last 36 years as a dealer, will hold the dealer responsible for these things.

I had a situation a few years ago where a customer traded in a car that had been wrecked and repaired to a very high standard at a reputable body shop. When the car was traded in, the person who traded it had to sign a damage disclosure form. They signed indicating the car had never been damaged.

The Carfax report was clean because the previous owner did not file an insurance claim. The customer I sold the car to was later involved in a minor fender bender with the car. He happened to take it to the same body shop for the minor repair. The body shop told the customer that they had previously repaired the car for someone else. Naturally they were upset because we had given them a clean Carfax.

We made it right for the buyer when we found out about it and took the person who traded it in to us to arbitration. The arbitrator ruled against us because as a dealer we "should have known" about unseen and undetectable previous damage even though the previous owner lied on the damage disclosure form because we are "experts" in the field.

I'm glad your firend was able to get his money back without a lot of hassle. PHS is very cheap insurance!

Wow! Thanks for sharing that story. Hard to believe a dealer "should have known" because all dealers are experts? With someone else blatantly lying??!! Unbelievable what some people can get away with - that is BS!! Guess we live in an unfair world - I'l never be a car dealer that is for sure.

[Ram4king]

Guy is at it again unfortunately. Sold it again on eBay as a real car for the same money to an unsuspecting buyer who called me today. His heart was broken when I told him the truth.
Now we're talking fraud because he was on notice about the car being fake.

[428ho4spd]

Its certainly not right for the seller to not disclose what the car really is/was, but I don't understand why people keep buying cars without doing their homework first, especially when buying a low production number car like this. So what exactly was this car originally?

[ponchjoe]

Originally Posted by Ram4king

Guy is at it again unfortunately. Sold it again on eBay as a real car for the same money to an unsuspecting buyer who called me today. His heart was broken when I told him the truth.
Now we're talking fraud because he was on notice about the car being fake.

Wow. How come people you know keep buying this car without talking to you??? This guy needs to be locked up, was it in eBay again?

[red1975pacer]

Seller is probably looking {or found} a buyer who wont litigate.

[Ram4king]

Yes the guy put it back on eBay stating the same facts the first time he sold it. I don't know the guy that bought it this time. Somebody he knows is a member here and alerted him to this thread. He then contacted me.

[GUILTY,HO]

I know someone who has a 1969 GP. SJ 428 4sp for sell, he has owned it for years.
Yes it is a real car with all of it's real parts. Has been sitting in dry storage for years.
He's asking 30K

[pontiac23]

Originally Posted by GUILTY,HO

I know someone who has a 1969 GP. SJ 428 4sp for sell, he has owned it for years.
Yes it is a real car with all of it's real parts. Has been sitting in dry storage for years.
He's asking 30K

PM sent

[HuJass]

Hey guys,
The new owner has contacted me about this car.
I believe he contacted me because I wrote this piece about GP production on Classical Pontiac 20 years ago.
http://www.classicalpontiac.com/gp/

I really couldn't tell him anything because I have no access to source material/documentation.

He really needs to talk to Jim Mattison over at PHS.


Can any of you provide more details about the car and the deals that have happens thus far?