[esahlin]

I dont know anything about what distiguishes a Ramair II versus anything else, but I will throw this website link in here for you guys. Maybe you already know about this car or maybe not.

I ran across this website searching for info on restoring my FB.....he says its a RamAir II FB.....says it might be the first one produced??

http://1stgencamaro.net/gallerytwo/v...400/?g2_page=2

[ramair2]

yep i saw that about a year ago..the restorer (not owner) actually posted here about the car but havent seen/heard from him this year (2007)... an italian name if memory serves?

ps no idea how he can say/prove its the first RA II car made...

[esahlin]

Can you conclude anything from his pics (like the pic of the block and the hood/ram air pan) that it is indeed a Ramair 2 car? Or do those items/pictures prove nothing? A ZR coded axle isnt a Raim Air 2 only item is it?

[Steve Hoog]

Gary's blue M40 is numbers match also.

The third GTO is a Vedoro green M40 II car.

[ramair2]

steve is gary's 3rd ra 2 verdoro gto (M40) matching too?

also...biggie here...in recent years mccarthy has said that ra II atomatic cars DID NOT come with the much more radical 041 cam (only 4speed cas did). instead he says it came with the almost docile in comparison 068 cam... is this true?? Can you ask gary if the motor on either M20 car he has is unmodified and if so does it have the mild 068 cam or the nasty 041 RA II cam ...(and sorry ra 4 guys its known as the "ra 2 cam" not the "ra iv" cam...ra ii came first!) :-)

[Steve Hoog]

Gary reads this all the time, I suspect he will be glad to answer the cam question if he knows.

I do not know the details of the third car at this time; I have to assume the first two are the cream of the crop, I personally like the Bird the best of all four he has.

[Cammer-6]

Originally Posted by The Boss

Neither of Truman's cars nor the one that Pete McCarthy campaigned were originally built as II's. One of Truman's was a I as was Pete's.



Yes & no - all of the II Firebird's were back traced in the mid/late 80's by Fred Simmonds and that is where the mid May date came from - I'm not sure if Fred kept track of the VIN's or not and if there is indeed a list - Gary, do you know for sure?

That same date has been used regularly as the date when ALL II production began, but I don't believe that to be the case. It has long been a fact of GTO Billing Cards that the April & May RA cars had all zero's in the EUN and TUN boxes, I've since learned that Firebirds shared this too - this tells me that the cars went into production without anybody knowing truly what motor they would get, but since it was a no cost option/mid year change, nobody seemed to care. I have heard of a late April, Baltimore built II car that has a numbers matching block, although I have never seen it - it's in NY.

I'm the second owner of a mid May Baltimore built Verdoro Green auto hardtop that I believe is a II, and a December Pontiac built 4spd Burgundy hardtop that is a I. The original motor on the green car went to the junk yard in 76 when it was blown (4:33 gears are brutal.) I've since bought two XW motors, one who's PHS I have (and JM has traced to find that it was crushed) and the other which I have not PHS'd for that reason. I also have the correct XS NOM for my 4spd I car which has no VIN number on it. All 3 of the blocks are "as-cast" 2506 blocks with the 2 XW's having C118 casting dates.

Some day we may have all the VINs and be able to document these like the IV cars, but I doubt it.

You make note that the RAII was a no cost option and could have blended in seamlessly with the ongoing production of RAIs.
I have documentaion that shows the April 29,1968 date as change from RAI to RAII
and a price change as well.New MSRP was $473.94 old was $357.29.
Hope this clears things up..

[The Boss]

Cammer-6, could you scan and post that for us?

[Cammer-6]

sorry my pc is broke and using a laptop with wireless card outside "borrowing" neighbors broadband.
Dont believe that APC surge arrestor in your UPS unit.It fried everything on the battery side.


Where did you get the idea it was a no cost change form RAI to RAII?

[The Boss]

Somewhere along the road I had learned that it was a mid year change over and that once they ran out of the RA I's they began dropping in the II's. The same 347 option code worked for both - you couldn't specify which one you got. I'm not questioning your documentation, in fact I like it because it predates my car by a couple of weeks - I'd just like to see it.

[Steve Hoog]

Gary's thoughts are there was no increase, but he reserves the right to be wrong.

He's going to check out the cam, he was interested in that question.

[68RamII]

RamAir2,

I found a letter dated 8/28/1996 from Pontiac Historical Services that says...

"Of the 246 Ram Air II GTOs that were built in 1968, we currently know of only a total of (10) cars that still exist. Additionally, of those ten cars, only (2) convertibles have surfaced."

I do know that RB's car was found after this letter was written.

I hope this helps.
John

[Cammer-6]

In all these years of trying to keep up with this Ive never seen anything that would lead one to believe that the transistion from RAI to RAII was a no cost increase.
Yes both were 347 code but you had no choice after April 29,1968.
Of that price increase it was including dealer prep which I cant understand an increase in
but more than likely just them getting a piece of the pie also.
Yes its also been widely known that RA cars with M-40 got a weaker cam. this was pretty much true for just about all hipos of that era.

As for the documentation I have sales listings,dealer albums of various release dates that spell this out and leave no doubt.
One of the documents was a dealer sheet that shows running changes in prices and the date they were implemented dated in early June 1968 showing the price increase and date it took over.

Hope this helps
Maybe by the end of week my PC woes will be over and can get this posted.

[Steve Hoog]

Could it be there was just a price increase that was not directly related to which of the two motors was received since the code was the same?

[ramair2]

"Yes its also been widely known that RA cars with M-40 got a weaker cam. this was pretty much true for just about all hipos of that era."

====
Not so for the RA IV. Auto or 4speed you got 041 cam. Also not true for L67s in 1967 (both got 744 cam). Furthermore every other 'automatic tranny cam downgrade' was a 'one tick' reduction. That is 68 RA I 4speed=744 cam...68 RA I auto=068....

Also...99% of all literature says 041 used on both RA II M21 and M40...EXCEPT unofficially offline by mccarthy....

I also asked pete (with no reply) why would 1969 RA IV auto get 041 cam (identical to the M21 version) while no so for the 1968 RA II auto cars....

ESPECIALLY when I have found NO evidence that there was a special stall converter for the RA IV automatic car...

The reason people usually give for the "auto tranny cam downgrade" is that the a higher stall is needed for the big cam and Pontiac didnt use a specific stall for the hi po L67 cars...

Ok fine...but then why did the RA IV auto cars get the 041? Unless of course they DID get a special L67 only stall...?

even if that IS the case (I dont buy it)....then how does one explain away the fact 1967 L67 cars ALL got the 744 cam??

Sorry for all the q's on this but THIS issue has always bugged me and never been adequately explained to me (even from the gr8 PMDers out ther who have a whole lot more expereicne than me!) :-)

Anyone have any thoughts or insights on any of this?

-RA2

[Steve Hoog]

Put the pressure on Gary, he can settle the matter.



Don't get me wrong; I myself have and enjoy two of Pete's books but just because he wrote a book, it does not make him the final word. He may well have torn down or knew someone that tore down a II M40, unless he quotes the source I count it as hersay.

[ramair2]

"Don't get me wrong; I myself have and enjoy two of Pete's books but just because he wrote a book, it does not make him the final word. He may well have torn down or knew someone that tore down a II M40, unless he quotes the source I count it as hersay.'
=====

I agree..never say never...thats the only 'rule' I follow...

That said id love to hear what others have to say on this...Maybe if enough comment we can get close(r) to a consensus on this one...

then again maybe not! :-)

[Cammer-6]

Ill dig out my NHRA tech spec for that era.
I know thats where I got alot of my info in past years
but time has a way of erasing memory.
BTW the NHRA tech specs were provided to them by the manufacturers.
I need to also amend my comment about the M-40s and cam selection.
I first said RAs then said hipos.
Hipos would have been more correct as this was even true with the 400HOs.
and 428s and so on.

[Cammer-6]

I found some of the tech sheets for NHRA 67-9.
L-67s do show some differences for M-40 and MS
in cam lift. They do not list the cam part# or duration
just the intake and exhaust lift.It is all over the place with cams
as showing L-67 RAI having different lifts for auto and MT.
RAII oddly enough shows same for both trans.
Ill also try and find my AMA specs to see if that helps clear it up.
I have alot more stuff to go thru but time alotted will damper this for now.

[Cammer-6]

Originally Posted by ramair2

That is 68 RA I 4speed=744 cam...68 RA I auto=068....

Also...99% of all literature says 041 used on both RA II M21 and M40...EXCEPT unofficially offline by mccarthy....

-RA2

I would like to see that literature.
All the factory documentation I have shows it just to be the opposite.
As far as I can tell 68 L-67s (both RAI and RAII) got a weaker cam for M-40s.
I dont have an unmolested 68 RA car to teardown and anyone who does isnt
going to do that for sake of settling this.
Also of note is that the NHRA specs for a 67 L-67 show a different cam for M-40 and MT.That I can not find factory literature to verify.But since NHRA only lists the valve lift its only .001 difference in favor of the M-40.
Years ago I was buying Crane Cams "blueprint series" cams as they were made better
and more accurately than the factory ones.
I see if I can dig up some of the info on these but it may not show what they replaced other than 744,068,041.