[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

That would be great for people to get a tour of special projects. It is a lot of fun. A real eye opener to many. Even going to the GM Heritage Center is a real eye opener. Like the Battery powered Corvair or the engineering built 327 V-8 powered Corvair back in the '60's that Tom Goad used to drive around. The 2004 GTO proposed by ASC that Ken Lingenfelter has in his collection. on and on..

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

Keith,
It is always amusing listening to people who have never been to Detroit and have no clue as to what we have here. All of the evaluation cars and one offs. A real factory built '68 Z-68 convertible. A Chevy powered factory built Mongusta. The "one of" preproduction "sign off" cars etc that are privately owned.

After all Keith, do you really believe this guy would believe you if you told him what you or any of the other guys have been drivng around from engineering? LOL

You just have to shake your head and move on.
Eric

Exactly, For example: The interesting story about this “compressed paper floor boarded” engineering 1959 El Catalina exercise here:
http://www.hemmings.com/hcc/stories/..._feature1.html

Upon its completion in April 1959, the vehicle was reportedly presented to Knudsen--possibly accompanied by John Z. DeLorean--for evaluation. It should be noted, however, that management already had concerns about the actual size of the new hybrid market, since Ford sold just 9,950 Rancheros in recession-plagued 1958. Still, the team had begun work on a second Safari-based pickup. Published reports indicate that the engineering department had allocated enough materials to build three such examples, a fact that was later substantiated in an interview with the late Pontiac Motors engineer John Sawruk. By the time the cab and front sheetmetal had been completed on prototype number two, a decision was handed down from Knudsen: The project was cancelled.
One reason for the decision was obvious: In a divided 1959 market, Ranchero (14,169) and El Camino (22,246) sales only reached a combined 36,415 units, which suggested to the top brass that the limited niche market could not support a third entrant. In addition, Pontiac was still squarely focused on its growing performance image; a sedan-based pickup didn't fit the strategy.
With work stopped mid-stream, the second prototype was allegedly finished with a flatbed and used as a parts shuttle within Pontiac's Engineering Center until its destruction. As for the original prototype assembled by the Engineering Center, it, too, was originally scheduled to be destroyed--except that it was somehow saved from such an ignoble fate. Its next decade of history would have been clouded in mystery had it not been for Michigan resident Darrel Lotridge.
According to recorded interviews obtained from the Safari pickup's current owner, William "Tom" Girrard, Darrel first learned of the Pontiac's existence because of a chance encounter in September 1960. According to Darrel, "I was in the dealership known as the Pontiac Retail Store, which was a factory outlet in Pontiac, Michigan. While looking at the new models, I spotted this '59 white Pontiac pickup at the bottom of the ramp in the basement. It immediately keyed up my interest, and I walked down the ramp and did an inspection. While talking to one of the employees there, I was told that the truck was a hand-built prototype... and that it was the only one."

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Alvin,
Thanks for more input.

There is a 1964 GTO with four wheel disc brakes still around. One of my patients tested a '66 2+2 with the four wheel disc brakes back in the day. They did not have them quite profected yet with the proportioning valve. Took the car home one night and locked up the back brakes and spun out during heavy braking on the street. No damage done.

Then there was John Delorean running around with a Overhead Cam 6 Firebird with side draft Webbers.

I believe Jim and Bob Kennedy's father was either a salesman or the manager of the Retail Store in Pontiac. Keith and I see the brothers just about every Saturday morning at our gatherings in Birmingham.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

Alvin,
Thanks for more input.

There is a 1964 GTO with four wheel disc brakes still around. One of my patients tested a '66 2+2 with the four wheel disc brakes back in the day. They did not have them quite profected yet with the proportioning valve. Took the car home one night and locked up the back brakes and spun out during heavy braking on the street. No damage done.

Then there was John Delorean running around with a Overhead Cam 6 Firebird with side draft Webbers.

I believe Jim and Bob Kennedy's father was either a salesman or the manager of the Retail Store in Pontiac. Keith and I see the brothers just about every Saturday morning at our gatherings in Birmingham.

I for one would like to know what happened to the Adams / Lamar mid-engine 2nd Gen Firebird prototype.

Was it crushed, or sitting in the corner of some warehouse now?

[Judge273]

One would think that a list exists?

Only 8 and they seem to have been tracked.

I bet Matt could make a quick one..

[FBird69]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

The original owners with the hood tac, automatic T/A was in the Deerfield Village sub division at Maple and Middlebelt.They sold it to Carl Rawley, VP of Schostak Brothers in approx. 1975.

The Adam's 4-speed T/A's clutch was launched by Gary Cocral while racing on Woodward. It was Gary's family who owned several restaurants in the Detroit area, like Maverick's. Gary was very good freinds with the Adam's twins. Gary roomed with Randy Adams at MSU. Gary now owns Beau' Jack's on Maple west of Telegraph. He loves to talk about the old days.

Deerfield, yes that's it! Thanks, it was kind of bugging me that I could not remember. I think the sale was later than 1975, unless Rawley lived in the same neighborhood. I was in my 77 T/A when I saw it in Deerfield.

I know of Gary too. Good friend of mine that grew up on Cathedral (Birmingham Farms) was friends with the family. When I went to Beau Jacks with them, we NEVER had to wait for a table regardless of the lines (back 20+ years ago). I haven't been there since, don't know if it's still as popular. I remember it was a beef buffet (westerner?) before Beau Jacks. Also remeber Biffs on the corner - great onion rings! When I was a kid, I would buy parts from Halverson's - where BK is now.

Was in town for the Dream Cruise a couple years ago. Unfortunately, it started after I left the Detroit area. Awesome event, indescribable, an absolute must see for any car afficinado. I was also happy that the Hunter House was still operating.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

FBird69,

Yes, Carl lived in Deerfield Village too. I know that Carl bought the car in 1974 -75. The brothers who had the T/A had both bought two new black Cosworth Vegas. Because I sold my '57 Vette and had a few bucks in my pocket in 1973. But it was before I went to St. Louis in August 1976.

How did you happen to wonder into Deerfield Village? I lived on Centerboork Drive in Deerfield Village. Several of our neighbors had rare cars back then. My parents still live there.

Next time you go to Beau Jack's you have to got to the "Mens" room. Gary has the a picture of Jimmy Addison's '67 GTX "Silver Bullet" on one wall and a Picture of Jim Wangers' '68 Firebird "Black Bird" with me driving and lifting it's tires coming off the light on Woodward at Hickory Grove. By the way, a lot more up scale. No Buffet. Piano bar etc.

If you go to Duggan's Irish Pub on Woodward north of 13 Mile. Upstairs obove the S&H Green Stamp sign the two cars hang there also.

[MikeNoun]

Dr. Schiffer, I'm a bit confused....

Are you saying that car #8 had a RAIV, or are you saying there was a car #9 made, with a RAIV?

The eight Trans Am ragtops VIN's are well known, and none were equipped with a RAIV. However, if one of these cars were sent to PMD engineering to have a RAIV transplant, that's a different story. Obviously would be phenomenal if it could be tracked down, but the invoice would still show a RAIII...

Thank you for your contributions to this site by the way. I've read all your posts in the "Stories" section, and they're fascinating.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

No, there is no #9. Jim Wangers took one of the 8 T/A's and converted it. Jim took T/A that was delievered to the retail store made into a Ram Air VI after it came off the assembly line as a 4-speed, air conditioned Ram Air III. After some doing Jim had the car delievered to the Adam's family. Local's, from the day, have always known of the conversion. This is the Adams from the Pontiac Ad agency, McMannus, John and Adams, that became DMBB. To whatever it is today.
The Adams family had the car for years. It had been baddly damaged some years ago in an accident with one of the Adam's twins. Adams Sr. had moved to California a few years ago. Now from what I just learned from a post here that car had been sold to some one in the upper west coast.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Now you have me thinking food. Biff's that really takes us back. Biff's on Telegraph south of Maple RD. Strike and Spare around the corner. The Egg and I, Suzy Q's onion rings, Hedges Wig Wom, two Big Boys on Woodward,Teds, Totem Pole ,Fox and Hounds, Macus Red Fox, Macus, Sly Fox and lastly Devon Gables.

Don't even get me started on the inaccuracies of the "Woodward Book", by Robert Genat.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Of the Eight T/A Convertibles:
Two Detroit Delievered 1969 Trans Am Convertibles
1) Retail store '69 T/A Ram Air, III 4-speed with air conditioning, . Sent to be converted
to became Ram Air IV by Jim Wangers for Adam's family. Moved to California. Adams sold to some one else On west
coast.
2) Clohescy Pontiac '69 T/A, Ram Air III, automatic. Sold to Carl Rawley, then to Milt
Robson, Georgia. Sold again by Milt Robson.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

This is the Adams from the Pontiac Ad agency, McMannus, John and Adams, that became DMBB. To whatever it is today.

McManus, John & Adams...which becam McManus & Masius....which became D'Arcy McManus & Masius, which merged with Benton & Bowles to become...

D'Arcy Masius Benton & Bowles.

Obviously - lol.

I think either Diego or Ragtopman (or both) may have worked there at some point during their respective careers. And, of course, Tenney's dad.



As an aside, when my Dad was racing for Royal, any money that he received (for parts, fuel, etc) came from ....McManus, John & Adams.

K

[Judge273]

You guys should consider writing down this stuff as it is really getting good!

I could see a nice book......

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Judge273

You guys should consider writing down this stuff as it is really getting good!

I could see a nice book......

Have you not seen my Dad's biography/autobiography?

Link to "My Pontiac Story": http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=560524

K

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Keith,
Can I borrow a number 2 pencil? You can bring Saturday morning.
Eric

[MikeNoun]

Thank you Dr. Schiffer. I was just making sure that there wasn't some new info about the 8 ragtops. That being said, all 1969 Trans Am convertibles were indeed built as RAIII cars.

Some people that believe that however a car came off the assembly line, that's where the story ends. But when a car gets transferred to engineering, the real story begins, and those are the ones that fascinate me. Some dismiss these one-offs as "dealer cars" or "transplants", and many times purists don't care about them as much as those cars where they have VIN matches on the dash, block, chassis, etc. But as we know, some of the most expensive and sought after Musclecars are those weird engineering cars, or dealer cars (i.e. Baldwin-Motion), and one-offs.

Without documentation and/or a paper trail, many of these fascinating engineering cars can just be considered transplant cars. A good example is the 1968 Z/28 convertible built for Pete Estes. I believe that car was built as an SS convertible (or maybe an RS/SS), and then sent to Chevrolet Engineering to be converted to a Z/28. It was the only one they did. There are those purists that consider this a conversion car, nothing more, because it wasn't built as a Z/28 convertible. However, that never hurt the value, because it had a paper trail, and sold a huge money at auction!

Your Blackbird is a great example of a car with a documented, rich history. Without that documentation and paper trail, it's a Firebird 400, that underwent a transplant back in the day. Someone less knowledgeable would have found the original 400 and put it back to numbers matching.

But with the known background of that Blackbird, it's rich history, it's absolutely priceless.

And yes, Mr. Seymore has one of those ridiculously rare cars too.

I need to get my butt back to Detroit some day.

[The Boss]

Here is the list - cut-n-paste & fill in as necessary.

223679N104808 - RA III/Auto sold through GM of Canada

223679N104810 - RA III/4spd sold new at Arnold Pontiac, Houston, PA

223679N105354 - RA III/4spd sold through GM of Canada

223679N105380 - RA III/Auto sold through GM of Canada

223679N106884 - RA III/Auto sold new at Kendall Motors, McComb, MS.

223679N107816 - RA III/4spd sold new at Pontiac, GMC of Williamsville, NY.

223679N109938 - RA III/4spd sold new through the Pontiac Retail Store, Pontiac, MI

223679N113370 - RA III/Auto sold new through Clohecy Pontiac, Detroit, MI

[Judge273]

Thanks Chris!

Is this the missing one?

223679N105354 - RA III/4spd sold through GM of Canada

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Judge273

Thanks Chris!

Is this the missing one?

223679N105354 - RA III/4spd sold through GM of Canada

x2 - Thanks for posting those up.

K

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Here are some articles on Carl Rawley's Trans Am. This one is was written by my old friend the late Paul Zazarine for "Muscle Car Review" February 1987.