[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Mike,
I respect what you are trying to say. Please do not quote magazine artilces. They make for a guide. But the articles are rarely accurate.

I had taken care of Jim Wangers' cars here in Detroit for a number of years until I sent his last Judge back to California to be sold a couple of years ago.

I used to race against these guy on the streets and hwy around Detroitin the late '60 - mid '70's. Later raced for Jim Wangers in the '90's.

I think you should look up the forum here on Best Pontiac Stories, sub cat. Woodward Ave Silver Bullet vs the Black Bird. Read through that then gat back with me.

I used to stop by Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac. I bought parts from the late Sam Frontier, (Parts Mgr) 1967 until 1971. It was the parts counter that sold you the Bobcat stuff. In fall 1969 I had to go George Delorean (Leader Automotive), when he was on Hilton in Ferndale to buy my Bobcat kit becuse Sam no longer had them. I also later dealt with George when he moved to Troy, MI on Wheaton. Sam, at Royal would send me up stairs above the parts area to select my intake manifolds and HO manifolds that were hung by metal hooks from the rafters.

I'm very aware of the two cars. I used to stop by Royal in 1969. My good friend John Polizter drove the 350 HO car and Brian Ballish came up with the combination. Dave Warren and Brain are also a friends. Dave Warren and John Politzer took the 350HO car out east and ran a well below the record. John tells me he had some problems on the first few runs. Dave told him to hold on. Opened the hood set something. Then John put down some 11.0's that were faster and faster than the 11.0's in the article. John tells me the track tech came over and told them that, "I don't know what you did to this car. But I suggested if you don't want to be torn down you leave now". According to both Dave and John this was more than a suggestion.

Please do not use Milt as being important to anything. Milt doing anything other than accompaning the cars, answering the phones on occasion, photo op's, light wrenching and occasional racing, is insulting to any one who was there. You will note that when ever any other Royal guy was with Milt, they did the heavy mod's, tunning and driving. They always had faster 1/4 mile times then Milt. Milt had to be given a title that sounded like he was important otherwise no one would take him serious. Even in Milt's book he takes credit for things he had nothing to do with. Ram Air? Chevrolet had used a cowl arm air in NASCAR in 1961. Guys had their hoods adjusted high at the cowl area. Invented by accident when puting the hoods back on after enigne work. Cooler engine dept and better air was found. Track tecs would not them run until rear of hood was put down for safety issues. That is when Chevrolet used the ducting to the firewall to the air cleaner. That was in 1961 not in 1964 that Milt claims when working on the red 1964 GTO Car and Driver car now owned by Tenney Fairchild.

Since the '70's Milt has been too busy stealing from people. From, his employees, club members, unsuspecting people who have seen Milt's name from around the country, from "OLD MAGAZINE" articles, from friends of mine and Detroit local news casters. The resent engines "built" by Milt are built by others. I can't imagine what Milt is using to verify Royal Bobcat's since all work orders and sales documents have been thrown out years ago.

It is because Jim Wanger's was asked by PMD corp., due to a complaint by a Ohio Dealer in 1964. He asked why was Jim Wangers only promoting Ace Wislon's Royal Pontiac when he is the Ad man for all of Pontiac and it's dealers. Earlier 1962 through 1964 articles had Jim Wangers and or the late Dick Jesse. This is when Milt was hired as the front man, "paper tiger". This also kept people from bothering the "real" Royal Mechanics/ Inventers/Engineers. Jim had to give up orginized racing and his appearances in the magazines. You will catch him in the back ground a shot from testing two '68 GTO's with Dave Warren and Milt Schornack.

Dick Jesse continued to race but was sponsored, not by his employer, Ace Wilson or the Royal Racing Team. But by Stan Long Pontiac who also sponsored their parts Manager the late Tony Kneiper and Stan Antlocher.

Frank Redicker, Win Brown, Chuck Broomfield, Jim Stewart, Clarence Walters, Bub Conrad, Dick Jesse, Van Seymore, Jack "Doc' Watson, Jim Wangers, Sam Frontier (parts Mgr),Dave Warren , Sid Warren, Brian Ballish, John Politzer, Billy Schmitz, Meryl Whitaker and several others. Did a lot more then Milt ever dreamed of.

It the begining it was Chuck Broomfield who was responsible for all of the Royal Bobcat installations kits. The other mechanics were line mechanics. After 6PM is when every one involved, changed their uniforms from Ace Wilson's Royal to Pontiac Engineering. At 9-10 PM the cars would go out for street testing. Sid and Dave Warren came onboard because they had a great running '65 GTO. Jim Wangers hired them and promissed them a new race car. It never materialzed. The Warren GTO was a faster car then the '66 GTO given to Milt. Even though the Warren's built both. Milt was not apart of the streeting racing either.

Sid lives in Florida and Dave is a salesman at a Chevrolet delearship in suburban Detroit. Brain retired from Ford motor company and now works at White's Engine and Marine in suburban Detroit. John Politzer is a part time car salesman at a Buick GMC dealership.

Other notable Pontiac people that are and were friends, ie the late Malcom Mac Mckellar, the late John Sawruk, Jack "Doc" Watson, the late Asa "Ace" Wilson Sr., John Politzer, Dave warren, Brian Ballish, Harvey Disner (salesman at Royal Pontiac), Tom Goad, Herb Adams... There are many more I still run into. I speak to John Politzer on or see him on a daily bases.

Since you like reading about this stuff it sounds like you read Joe Oldham's book. This will help get you part way to the truth about test cars. Even having been there most of us can not remember back then. It was just a period in our lives. For some a job

So, please do not quote magazine articles to me or any one else for that matter. They are meant as a good read but are NOT factual by any stretch of the imagination. They sell product, magzines and car stuff.

Let me once again suggest this,Forum Best Pontiac Stories, sub cat. Woodward ave Silver Bullet vs Black Bird.

I just got a call from John Polizter. I told him about this forum. I'm going to take his advice. Don't bother and waste my time. You know He's right.

By the way I owned, from the late '80's, the intellectual property rights to Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac, Royal Racing Team and GeeTo Tigers.

Have a nice day.

[muscle_collector]

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU i cant tell you how sick and tired over 30 years of having people tell me something is something or something didnt happen just because one guy wrote something about it. and alot of times the guy writing it wasnt even there. PLEASE PLEASE keep telling things that will get down to the truth.

ps- if i remember correctly a good friend ( steve hoog) of mine talked with you a few years ago about ram air 5 cars . ???

[MikeNoun]

Dr Schiffer, I did read your story in the other section, and I mentioned that in earlier in this thread. It's a great read. Not sure why you appear to be so angry.

I was clearing up misinformation you stated about the Carousel Red 1969 Firebird engineering car. You stated it was a Trans Am prototype. It was not. The information I quoted was from Mr. Sawruk, who wrote a detailed article on the car back in 1992.

I also relayed a story from Milt's book about the 350 H.O. car. I know Milt's name is mud. I simply relayed a story he had about how well the 350 H.O. ran. No harm done.

You stated : "So, please do not quote magazine articles to me or any one else for that matter. They are meant as a good read but are NOT factual by any stretch of the imagination. They sell product, magzines and car stuff. "

So you're saying to ignore everything Mr. Sawruk, Jim Wangers, Herb Adams, Pete McCarthy, John Schinella, Bill Porter, Tom Goad, and Mac McKellar ever wrote over the past 30+ years for HPP, Pontiac Enthusiast, and various other articles? That's where I get my information from. It's a shame you appear not to have faith in anything that was ever written or published. Gary Witzenburg and Michael Lamm also spent years putting together their books, which contained exhaustive research, direct quotes, and first-hand accounts from these gentlemen back in the 1980's, before things became clouded through the sands of time.

I referenced Oldham's book because he states the 1969 Firebird he tested was a RAIV, and it wasn't. That's a fact, and I stated earlier why it's a fact. I used logic and documentation, not someone's fuzzy memory, which Oldham apparently had. Just setting the record straight.

I do appreciate your input, and I also respect the fact you were involved in all this stuff back in the day. I simply corrected one piece of information where you stated the 455 H.O. Carousel Red car was a prototype Trans Am, which it was not. If Mr. Sawruk made up the story, then please provide documentation to the contrary.

And if these old magazine articles are all BS, please stop posting them.

Thank you.

[johnta1]

Dr Schiffer, thanks for the history of these cars.
I really appreciate these, wish we could get more people from back in the day to relate their stories.
As you said, back then it was a job, no one thought what procedures, ideas, stories may be lost in the future.
It always seemed that it was common knowledge.
Years later, things are forgotten or become foggy.

I myself, would be very interested in John Polizter's memories of those times.
Most of us, me included, weren't in that area to know what went on.

Thanks again for the posts.

[John Haley]

Can we see pictures of #8 or what is left of it?

[Big Moe]

What a GREAT bunch of info! Its been my intension to bring FACTS about the (1) of's or rarest of the rare firebirds that I have come in contact with. The stories do seem to blurr but,I have talked too Steve Kelly,writer of the March 1969 Hot Rod article featured the Silver 1969 Trans Am,Eric Dahlquist,writer of the Motor Trend April 1969 article featured the Silver TA and Jerry Titus with the Trans Am--Trans Am race car. The memories appear to them as vivid slices of their past work. Both Steve and Eric as I told them what I was doing with the Silver car offered priceless stories of their past as well as FACTS about the day. I respect the words they say and they are accurate so,if others dispute let them bring more facts to back it up. These stories need tobe printed with as much info as canbe because the day will come when only speculation of this will be left to whoever.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by John Haley

Can we see pictures of #8 or what is left of it?

I'm going to defer that question to Eric; he is friends with the owner so any contact would have to be through him.

K

[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by John Haley

Can we see pictures of #8 or what is left of it?

X2. Sure would put all those stories to rest .

[The Boss]

It's not very photogenic.....if you know what I mean.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by The Boss

I think there were three with the blue top Todd and some believe it still exists and is still in the country, and some believe they have spoken to the owner although I have not heard of anybody laying eyes on it yet. It has been said that the current owner of #8 does in fact know what he has.

Although Milt has owned 3 of the 8 (or 7) I do not believe it was all at the same time, although I believe he did have two of them at one point.

The hottest one to date (not counting the stories revolving around the one Gary owned ) has to be the one Matt sold to Charlie, & Charlie had restored then sold to Phil which moved on to another owner this past year for a 7 figure number.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by The Boss

It's not very photogenic.....if you know what I mean.

I believe you are correct.

K

[trishieldchief]

Blue convertible top looks great on TA,nice color combo.

[69 T/A]

Originally Posted by The Boss

It's not very photogenic.....if you know what I mean.

Trust me, I have seen worse.

[The Boss]

Is this it??? Who sent me these???

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I thought we were expecting a 4spd specimen on the 8-ball ...

And i cant make out a D80 on the trim tag ...

I bet when someone said it would fit in the back of a pick-up, they meant what was re-usable could fit inside a truck. With room to spare

Glad its still above ground and identifiable.
Fairly easy resto if you have a couple of the "right parts".
A 69 TA Hdtp and a 69 Base Vert.

[400 4spd.]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

...

Fairly easy resto if you have a couple of the "right parts".
A 69 TA Hdtp and a 69 Base Vert.

And a rivet, or four.

[boater bill]

Originally Posted by 400 4spd.

And a rivet, or four.

If the trim tag is missing as shown, I hope it is in a safe place and not put on another convert.
I tried to find the VIN under the heater box in the picture, but I can't bend my neck that far.

[John Haley]

Originally Posted by The Boss

Is this it??? Who sent me these???

I don't think so, I have seen that fender pic just recently. I do believe that is a hardtop T/A.

[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by John Haley

I don't think so, I have seen that fender pic just recently. I do believe that is a hardtop T/A.

Theres no evedence from those pics that its even a vert. Sad to see any TA in that shape though

[A Schab]

Thoose pictures were just on a thread about air extracor location.