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#41
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Ouch....sorry to see that. Don't know the final answer on the bracket but I have to agree that it's probably cheap insurance.
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Greg Reid Palmetto, Georgia |
#42
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http://www.machdevelopment.com/album...775/527566.htm |
#43
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Ok, I'm not getting into the middle of this argument, but I am agreeing that using the starter bracket is a good idea. Why not? It's very cheap insurance.
As I said, "for the cost and relatively minor hassle involved, is it worth not using the bracket?". You're right, the starter did NOT cause the failure, at least not directly. And no, it's not the bolt in the picture that caused the failure either. That is a longer, proper thread bolt and nut that I put in to hold the boss in place to take pictures, AFTER the break occurred. |
#44
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I have no argument about the bracket. With a stock heavy starter its probably a good idea.
The RobbMc starter is very light and probably does not need the bracket. There is no way to bolt one on a RobbMc starter anyway. There looks like the paint is scrapped away around that broken bolt boss like there was a nut on it. That's what I was looking at.
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http://www.machdevelopment.com/album...775/527566.htm |
#45
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Yeah, I put the nut on post-catastrophe. That's why I used the longer bolt.
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#46
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He nailed it. |
#47
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Still Going!
You guys are preaching to the choir!
To be forewarned is to be forearmed...my bracket went back on secured with the stud and nut up front...one less thing to worry about...
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"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson 1969 GTO Convertible 1970 Torino GT 429/SCJ 1968 Corvette 427/435hp 1998 Corvette Pace Car 2015 Challenger FF R/T Classic |
#48
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#49
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This was the first outing of the new 4 inch stroke 421. SY disliked the 3.25 main bearing size because it had a tendency to heat the oil more than the 3 inch mains. Smokey then started the stroker trend we use commonly now by turning 4 inch stroke 3.25 mains down to 3 inches so they could be used in a 389 block. He felt the 3.25 mains were excessive and lobbied the engineers to reduce the size. He wasn't successful in getting the engineers to reduce the main bearing size, and then built the successive engines to his own specs, 4 inch stroke crank with 3 inch main journals used in a 389 block. From my recollection, the starter brace wasn't used until 1964 when Pontiac started using the block to mount the starters. Without the brace the starter bolts have a tendency over time to break the block casting where the starter bolts are tapped into it. The earlier starter mounted either on the bellhousing or the transmission with 7/16 x1" bolts and used lock washers. The block mounted starters used 3/8 x 4 inch bolts. There is much more leverage when the starter engages on a block mounted application, than the early transmission mounted applications, having the tendency to shear things at the weakest link. Below is an example of what can happen to the block without the starter brace on later blocks.
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Brad Yost 1973 T/A (SOLD) 2005 GTO 1984 Grand Prix 100% Pontiacs in my driveway!!! What's in your driveway? If you don't take some of the RACETRACK home with you, Ya got cheated Last edited by Sirrotica; 02-11-2017 at 12:22 PM. |
#50
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Thought 61 Pontiac's were still running 389 because 421 was not offered in a production car ( NASCAR Rules ) I know Cotton Owens 61 Pontiac was a 389 for sure.
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#51
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61 was the first year for a 421, dealer installed option. NHRA also recognized it.
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The real version I did hear was that the starter was not the start of the event, just a casualty of the event. I believe years later SY recanted the story saying the starter was the cause because of the corporation did not want to admit that the engine actually failed.
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Brad Yost 1973 T/A (SOLD) 2005 GTO 1984 Grand Prix 100% Pontiacs in my driveway!!! What's in your driveway? If you don't take some of the RACETRACK home with you, Ya got cheated Last edited by Sirrotica; 02-11-2017 at 12:54 PM. |
#52
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a power steering pulley that is 1/4" too large diameter so you cant change the alternator without disassembling the power steering hardware have you ever removed a fan without shredding your fingers against the rad Rube Goldberg clutch linkage an oil pan that can only be properly reinstalled by just about removing the engine so the only way to properly replace above mentioned plastic timing chain is to remove engine! (so you can properly remove shredded plastic from oil pick up using plastic studs behind the dash to ground all the gauges and lighting
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My Break Away Squad 1969 Fbird (Base, 350 & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA Hardtops) 1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr Hardtop and a Cvt) 1969 LeMans Safari 2 seat Wagon 1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 Hardtops & Judge Hardtop) 1969 Catalina (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr hardtop) 1969 Ventura 2 Seat Wagon 1969 Executive 4dr Sedan 1969 Bonnie Cvt 1969 Bonnie 3 Seat Wagon (2 of them) 1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr Hardtop & Cvt) 1969 Grand Prix SJ (2 of them) 1969 2+2 2dr Hardtop (Canadian model) |
#53
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#54
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Perhaps a car that's " Engineered to move the human spirit", or a car that you can "Drive your dreams" ? ? Seriously though, try a clutch job on a C7 Vette. Want to change a starter on some new cars? It's under the intake manifold in the valley. The GTO is a piece of cake. How about a wiring harness for the average new car? the wiring loom looks like it came out of a 767. Last edited by U47; 02-13-2017 at 08:18 PM. |
#55
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Don't get me wrong, I (obviously) love these cars and enjoy so many aspects of them but I can simultaneously point out areas they dropped the ball!
Plastic timing gears, no heat-cutoff switch on the AC compressor, insufficient rust proofing, leaky hoodtachs etc were clearly the products of substandard engineering and GM was slow to address many issues. In fairness GM cars in general were the best of the bunch compared to the local competition in those days but these type of problems and the rational behind them would soon lead to the Japanese and European competitors taking huge market share from the big 3!
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My Break Away Squad 1969 Fbird (Base, 350 & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA Hardtops) 1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr Hardtop and a Cvt) 1969 LeMans Safari 2 seat Wagon 1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 Hardtops & Judge Hardtop) 1969 Catalina (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr hardtop) 1969 Ventura 2 Seat Wagon 1969 Executive 4dr Sedan 1969 Bonnie Cvt 1969 Bonnie 3 Seat Wagon (2 of them) 1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr Hardtop & Cvt) 1969 Grand Prix SJ (2 of them) 1969 2+2 2dr Hardtop (Canadian model) |
#56
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It is interesting that some very good V-8's came with plastic coated aluminum camshaft gears like all FE including 425 h.p. 427 Fords, and 429, 472, 500, 425, 368 Cadillac's especially the later Cadillac's when the problem had surfaced decades before! They always said it was a noise issue, but with a double roller in my 389 Catalina and 455 LeMans I could never hear any difference. In My Olds which is super quiet and smooth, it's 250 with seven main bearings has a gear to gear drive! |
#57
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Good thread over all. I did learn not to ever remove that starter bracket. Ah the joys of a 20 min job turning into a 3 hr job while lying on your back cussing, gouging your hands, and getting greasy! But you can't replicate the feeling and pride of accomplishment I don't think in any other hobby. Being able to wrench on and keep these old beauties on the road is priceless.....try doing it with these new cars. You gotta love it!
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1966 GTO Vert automatic. 1969 CR Judge Ram Air III 4sp Pattern Car. 1969 GTO standard 350HP TH-400. 2006 GTO Phantom Black 6spd. 1972 Formula 455HO Ram Air. 1976 LE Trans Am 50th Anniversary Edition with T top. 1976 Formula 350. 1977 Grand Prix Model J 350. 1978 Trans am 400 Pontiac. 1979 Trans am 403 Olds. 1968 Olds 442. 1971 TR6. |
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