[unruhjonny]

I believe that the braced hood is a 1972 part;
I am unclear on when the change over may have been;
It could have been late in the 1971 model year, or it could have been into the 1972 model year.

I am unclear on this.

I thought I was clear in my understanding that these unbraced hoods were factory installed on 1970 and 1971 model year Formulas.

I would also appreciate knowing if anyone has removed the bracing to make a later hood look look like an early hood.

[Ramairnacho]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

I believe that the braced hood is a 1972 part;
I am unclear on when the change over may have been;
It could have been late in the 1971 model year, or it could have been into the 1972 model year.

I am unclear on this.

I thought I was clear in my understanding that these unbraced hoods were factory installed on 1970 and 1971 model year Formulas.

I would also appreciate knowing if anyone has removed the bracing to make a later hood look look like an early hood.

If you remove the bracing it will warp or break I think. The early design has rivets on side to hold it to inner framing, The new design has rivets on bracing with out bracing or rivets it will probably break or warp very easily . But I'm no expert.

[SD455DJ]

Here is my '71 Formula's original hood with the 2-12-71 chalk date still on the front bulkhead. It has the full length braces and the Formula's build date on the trim tag is 05B.

Dennis

[Ramairnacho]

Then it's true the non braced is a 1 year only hood or early version and the steel braces is the improved version to prevent breaking at hinges and warping. hmmm

[Held for Ransom]

I believe early in the '71 model year, there were leftover '70 hoods used.

[SD455DJ]

I'm not real familiar with PMD's reasons for adding the bracing, but that makes sense to me to strengthen the hood. Here are my '70 Formula's hood which has no bracing and is flat, no bows. 04D Date code.

Dennis

[SD455DJ]

Originally Posted by Held for Ransom

I believe early in the '71 model year, there were leftover '70 hoods used.

That makes sense too Mike.

Dennis

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by Held for Ransom

I believe early in the '71 model year, there were leftover '70 hoods used.

fair enough.

Lets say they showed up in 1971;
I am totally open to that.

By any chance, have you any information recorded which might suggest the change over date?

Before this discussion, I have never had anyone assert that the unbraced hood was a 1970 specific part .

I think there are simply too many of the unbraced hoods still out there for them to only have been installed on 1970 model year cars.

70-75 Formula production (except SD455)
1970 = 7,708
1971 = 7,802
1972 = 5,249
1973 = 10,123
1974 = 14,461
1975 = 13,670
total = 59,013

7708/59013 = 13% for total Formula production

If ‘nacho is right, this hood was only used on 13% of the cars produced;
If that is correct shouldn’t they be a LOT harder to find?
They are certainly more uncommon than the braced type, but not that hard to find.

Getting back on topic, I think it’s worth pointing out that a car built the second week of May would be a late model year car;
With September the first and June the tenth (and often last full month of production), that means a May built car was built during the ninth out of ten full months of production.

If we assume that the chalk marks on the hood are m-d-y dating format,
AND
If we assume the date indicates the date the hood was completed as a sub assembly;
That means it was manufactured during the sixth month of production (also past the half way point).

Curiously, February to May is a very large spread for a part to be produced then find it’s way to production (if that’s what the date signified) - that’s roughly four months!
I had understood that production components are typically measured in weeks or less.

Is it possible that the chalk mark was done at the dealer?
if the chalk mark was d-m-y, that could have been a dealer prep/service mark made on the second of December 1971.
I believe it was common for dealerships to mark underhood to record service dates.

So if this car is unchanged from factory assembly;
AND
If the chalk mark is a sub assembly date of manufacture for the hood that means:
1) we for sure have the hood showing up on production line vehicles late in the 1971 model year;
2) we have the possibility of the hoods being installed in the second half of the model year.

I will stop guessing here, and let someone who knows more than me weigh in…

[Formulabruce]

>> Unrujonny >>In the WAY back machine , 2008, we have the 1ST Post in the sticky thread up top of this forum called 70 ONLY parts...hood discussion is NOT new. These bend up and can crack easy, so the reiforcement was added.
>>>>> link to post https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=580525
In 2009 you Posted in this thread that you READ it all..
">
unruhjonny unruhjonny is online now
Ultimate Warrior

Join Date: May 2004
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 6,213
Jan 1, 2009 post # 102
ok, a friend told me about this thread so I came to see the list... I read it all... <<<<<<<<<

I feel compelled to add the following because most of the "1970" parts were either 70-71, or 70 & early 71 parts...

1) red crested 4 speed shifter handle (with shift pattern); presumably an early production run part which replaced the standard black round knob on cars with deluxe interiors.

2) red-crested 3 speed shifter handle (w/o shift pattern); presumably an early production run part which replaced the standard black round knob on cars with deluxe interiors.

3) Muncie 3 speed manual transmission; This was the standard transmission on the 70/71 Formula, and was optional as a "heavy duty" 3 speed in 70/71 V8 base & Esprit models; Pontiac RPO M13, NLA in Firebird after 1971.
No offense meant here... Craig and Mike have slapped me a bit when I go astray !! hehe

Raimairnacho>> while you "can" open these hoods with a reciprocating saw, the saw blades DRIFT easy with fiberglass. I would HIGHLY recommend using a metal straight edge probably 1/4" inch to do the tops and bottoms. Verify the lip first on the block off on the closed off hood. You Can possibly use a flat file to fix up a wavy one if not too bad.
Good luck...

[Formulabruce]

Formula Production really has NO bearing on the # of R/A hoods.. GASP, but why?
Every 5th dealer had 2-3 IN stock and some on west coast had more. One dealer near me had like 10 in 2007 outback in a broken roof shed and they all were stored wrong and ruined.
I will make a guess that probably 6-8,000 "spares" were made for Body shops AT Pontiac dealers and for OTC sales. This is just in US. ..

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by SD455DJ

Here is my '71 Formula's original hood with the 2-12-71 chalk date still on the front bulkhead. It has the full length braces and the Formula's build date on the trim tag is 05B.

Dennis

Dan, my 70 formula has the same date chalk marks almost in the same spot as your hood. Cool pic.
Build date on mine is 05D and date on hood is 5-9-70

[rolling money pits]

Wouldn’t the bowing be caused by the same thing that bowed steel hoods, pulling rather than push/ pull? Mine was bowed/warped just forward of the end of hinge, just like my steel hoods.

The hinge wanting to pop the hood open doesn’t make sense, they over spring in the closed position, pulling it down or at least keeping it static. If not, once one popped the hood and released safety, they would fly open.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I don't have any documentable source , but its highly doubtful that PMD produced the fiberglass hoods in-house. Most likely outsourced them like they did the Endura bumpers.

I wouldn't expect there to be short terms between mfg stencil dates and body mfg dates in too many cases .

Also wouldn't be surprised if all non braced hoods were used until exhausted in a running change.
And we don't really know when that happened , but you guys seem to be getting a better grip towards it. Good Luck

[SD455DJ]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

I don't have any documentable source , but its highly doubtful that PMD produced the fiberglass hoods in-house. Most likely outsourced them like they did the Endura bumpers.

I wouldn't expect there to be short terms between mfg stencil dates and body mfg dates in too many cases .

Also wouldn't be surprised if all non braced hoods were used until exhausted in a running change.
And we don't really know when that happened , but you guys seem to be getting a better grip towards it. Good Luck

The '71 Formula hood had the AO Smith (Ionia, MI) label on it. I haven't looked for any on the '70's hood yet, but I imagine it too is an AO Smith product.

Dennis

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

... In the WAY back machine , 2008, we have the 1ST Post in the sticky thread up top of this forum called 70 ONLY parts...hood discussion is NOT new. ...

Discussion about these hoods is not new;
I never suggested that this discussion was new.

What is new to me is someone suggesting with a degree of clarity that the unbraced hood is a 1970-only part.

I am pretty sure that the "1970-only" assertion was debunked well before my first post (#102) in that same thread.

I could look more through that same thread to find other replies about it but I am fairly confident the "1970-only" assertion was quickly tossed out - which is why the latest compiling had the hood type in the 70-71 category;

To be ever more clear, I compiled information from that thread, and while I did add the odd item during the ongoing discussion - the "update" posts I have made were not "my" information;
You can find all the items elsewhere in that same thread posted by members other than myself.

Everything I have learned about the unique parts for these early cars has been learned either here, or the pre-crash classicalpontiac.com discussion board (I believe I joined that board in the late 90's).

The absolute garbage that I have read on social media groups touted as fact is astonishing - and since 'nacho had said he was told a 'story' by someone, which I do not recall reading here, I assumed it was from a social media group.

What I am trying to correct here is the assertion that this hood is a "1970-only" part;
I tried to be amply clear that I could not recall when the braced hood was phased in, but I was quite confident when I first spoke up in this discussion, that by 1973 they were all braced.

Regarding this:

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

Formula Production really has NO bearing on the # of R/A hoods.. GASP, but why?
Every 5th dealer had 2-3 IN stock and some on west coast had more. One dealer near me had like 10 in 2007 outback in a broken roof shed and they all were stored wrong and ruined.
I will make a guess that probably 6-8,000 "spares" were made for Body shops AT Pontiac dealers and for OTC sales. This is just in US. ..

Maybe you were doing some angry posting here?
(no, I didn't miss it in the first post either)

Replacement parts is not new.
Replacement first version parts are exceptionally rare.
I am pretty confident that before the unbraced hood was phased out, demand for replacement hoods would have been very low.
Demand would have been much higher a couple years after the '70 Formula came out - and at that time, the hoods would have all been manufactured with the additional bracing.
To say that another way, I would think that the vast majority of the replacement hoods would be the later hoods.

If 'nacho's assertion of these being "1970-only" hoods is correct, and we add in a small number of service replacement hoods made DURING the 1970 model production run (February 1970 to early July 1970) we would now be looking at numbers well below 10% of the total 70-75 Formula hood production - making the early hood that much rarer - and to me, these hoods are too easy to find to be parts that ceased to be made before July 1970 (which would probably be around the time that 1971 model year parts were being pumped out).

But let's pivot for a second;
Unmodified cars are fantastic examples for situations just like this.
Sometimes these cars are flawed examples because of "lost" service or repair history, but generally they serve as great examples of when parts or assembly methods changed.

If that chalk marking on Dennis's Formula hoods is a m-d-y format (which to me seems confirmed by FormulaJones's (1970) hood markings);
If the lead time in mid-May (1971) between braced hoods and cars produced was four months;
Then that means there was a LARGE stock pile of hoods before May 1971.

It shouldn't be a stretch of the imagination to think that the hood type change over likely happened mid way or late into the model year.

FormulaJones' 70 Formula seems to be a great example of the typical date spread from sub assembly to production - because that date spread is measured in days, not months.

[Ramairnacho]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

Discussion about these hoods is not new;
I never suggested that this discussion was new.

What is new to me is someone suggesting with a degree of clarity that the unbraced hood is a 1970-only part.

I am pretty sure that the "1970-only" assertion was debunked well before my first post (#102) in that same thread.

I could look more through that same thread to find other replies about it but I am fairly confident the "1970-only" assertion was quickly tossed out - which is why the latest compiling had the hood type in the 70-71 category;

To be ever more clear, I compiled information from that thread, and while I did add the odd item during the ongoing discussion - the "update" posts I have made were not "my" information;
You can find all the items elsewhere in that same thread posted by members other than myself.

Everything I have learned about the unique parts for these early cars has been learned either here, or the pre-crash classicalpontiac.com discussion board (I believe I joined that board in the late 90's).

The absolute garbage that I have read on social media groups touted as fact is astonishing - and since 'nacho had said he was told a 'story' by someone, which I do not recall reading here, I assumed it was from a social media group.

What I am trying to correct here is the assertion that this hood is a "1970-only" part;
I tried to be amply clear that I could not recall when the braced hood was phased in, but I was quite confident when I first spoke up in this discussion, that by 1973 they were all braced.

Regarding this:



Maybe you were doing some angry posting here?
(no, I didn't miss it in the first post either)

Replacement parts is not new.
Replacement first version parts are exceptionally rare.
I am pretty confident that before the unbraced hood was phased out, demand for replacement hoods would have been very low.
Demand would have been much higher a couple years after the '70 Formula came out - and at that time, the hoods would have all been manufactured with the additional bracing.
To say that another way, I would think that the vast majority of the replacement hoods would be the later hoods.

If 'nacho's assertion of these being "1970-only" hoods is correct, and we add in a small number of service replacement hoods made DURING the 1970 model production run (February 1970 to early July 1970) we would now be looking at numbers well below 10% of the total 70-75 Formula hood production - making the early hood that much rarer - and to me, these hoods are too easy to find to be parts that ceased to be made before July 1970 (which would probably be around the time that 1971 model year parts were being pumped out).

But let's pivot for a second;
Unmodified cars are fantastic examples for situations just like this.
Sometimes these cars are flawed examples because of "lost" service or repair history, but generally they serve as great examples of when parts or assembly methods changed.

If that chalk marking on Dennis's Formula hoods is a m-d-y format (which to me seems confirmed by FormulaJones's (1970) hood markings);
If the lead time in mid-May (1971) between braced hoods and cars produced was four months;
Then that means there was a LARGE stock pile of hoods before May 1971.

It shouldn't be a stretch of the imagination to think that the hood type change over likely happened mid way or late into the model year.

FormulaJones' 70 Formula seems to be a great example of the typical date spread from sub assembly to production - because that date spread is measured in days, not months.

It's a 1 year only hood they had issues that's why it got redesigned. they where breaking and going back to dealer under warranty this is not a know secret. The second design is a better hood that you can see on the 71 dated in February is steel reinforced hood. Yes it is possible that they did use 70 hoods on 71 but it's a left over part just like the 71 ta with a 12 bolt. They are very hard to find with out bracing in any condition I have only seen about 6 for sale in last 5 years. Im.mire puzzled on the ra hood I bought and has no lip but factory screens and boot retainers. I believe it's a 71.

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by Ramairnacho

... they (1970 hoods) where breaking and going back to dealer under warranty this is not a know secret. ...

Please - Offer some proof of the above statement.

You have only offered conjecture.

If unbraced hoods were really breaking, how come you can still find them fifty-four years later(?).

Originally Posted by Ramairnacho

... Yes it is possible that they did use 70 hoods on 71 ...

right there you have contradicted yourself.
It's not a possibility;
Weather you realize it or not, you are attempting to rewrite facts.

To be a "1970 only" part;
It would not have been used on 1971 vehicles.

I think I read that same post that you did about a 1971 TA with a twelve bolt;
I cannot recall that story or situation;
But clearly there is more to the story there.

[Ramairnacho]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

Please - Offer some proof of the above statement.

You have only offered conjecture.

If unbraced hoods were really breaking, how come you can still find them fifty-four years later(?).



right there you have contradicted yourself.
It's not a possibility;
Weather you realize it or not, you are attempting to rewrite facts.

To be a "1970 only" part;
It would not have been used on 1971 vehicles.

I think I read that same post that you did about a 1971 TA with a twelve bolt;
I cannot recall that story or situation;
But clearly there is more to the story there.

These cars are older than me. I have had my car since a,little boy. Even back then parts where hard to find. Local wrecking yard and friend Steave Hanson had more firebirds than GM sports in the 90's. He told me the steel reinforced hoods started in 1971 because of bowing and breaking at hood hinge area. Other members have discussed this too. It's the 1st version of the formula hood and I will cut out my vents. I believe Steave and Formula Bruce. I'm not a judge or hVe time to research or question what was taught to me. I drove 8 hours to buy to hoods .Will run the ra hood and make a 70 ra hood too. I might even date code it with a yellow crayon just because it can be done. I believe the old timers that grew up with these cars. Can we explain the Feb. dated blue steel reinforced hood? That hood throws yours thought of 71 being non reinforced out or it went to dealer with a broken hood and got swapped out. My brown hood has original stickers on it and is correct for 71 or 72 I believe. It would be fun to know if it's really a 1 year part but as far as I know I think it is. But I'm no expert bro. I'm just getting my parts to restore it. My friend in Texas has a real ra stick and his unbraced hood bowed. the wind goes through the snorkles along with heat putting upward force on them and they warp. The steel reinforced hood warps too for same reason. Adding slightly thicker reinforced steel bracing helps
I'm not trying to argue with you or upset you. I like you and you teach me things about my car. I never really questioned if it's really a one year only part but you have a valid point and maybe the older members with wisdom will shine a light on your concern and curiosity. I'd like to know too.

[Formulabruce]

Why try to be Exact? These are Production cars, for Profit, not hand built and blueprinted cars documented to the bolt markings..
I love learning, and whats correct, but with parts change Pick orders in place, a lot of this stuff will Never be exact.
Asking a question here, then asking it on 5 Facebook pages only gets controversy and drama. While a bunch of use do use FB, It would take an Army to actually Defend History, and or originality.
I appreciate info here and input..

[Formulabruce]

Why try to be Exact? These are Production cars, for Profit, not hand built and blueprinted cars documented to the bolt markings..
I love learning, and whats correct, but with parts change Pick orders in place, a lot of this stuff will Never be exact.
Asking a question here, then asking it on 5 Facebook pages only gets controversy and drama. While a bunch of use do use FB, It would take an Army to actually Defend History, and or originality.
I appreciate info here and input..