[mgarblik]

I started this thread because there is some heated banter going in another thread about a restomod 72 TA on BAT. (which BTW, has a Pontiac engine) Why does a Pontiac engine matter? Who cares? They are all GM cars. As someone who has spent nearly 50 years working with traditional Pontiac engines, this is my take on the whole deal. GM in the muscle car era was much different from Ford, Chrysler and AMC. Plymouth and Dodge had the exact same engine platforms, Ford and Mercury the same and AMC, well they were AMC. GM had 5 different divisions, each had their own running gear, completely different from each other. Even transmissions, rear axles, and other major components were different and not interchangeable. Yes, I know they did share more as the years progressed. The Pontiac V8 was designed and produced for Pontiac cars by Pontiac engineers. Yes, part of GM, but very different. Every division had their own identity and each divisions cars were very different in every way. The Pontiac 350, Chevy 350, Buick 350, Oldsmobile 350 were so very different in every way. These differences gave the car it's character or soul as it was described in the other thread.

It was stated in the other thread that the LS engine is the BEST engine GM has ever produced. Of course there will never be agreement in a statement like that. I would hope to hell that in the 70 years since the Pontiac V-8 was designed that even GM could manage to make some improvements. The LS engine is a very good powerplant. Very strong bottom end, excellent gasket and seal design, simple compared to a 4-cam Ford V-8. I personally like them and work on them every day. I can confirm that a stock LS bottom end can handle 1000 HP because my students have done this with junkyard 6 liter truck engines. So no problem with them.

So what is my point? It's this. In an old vintage Pontiac, I want it to have the major components that made it great in the 50's, 60, 70's when it was built. Pulling the Pontiac V-8 out and tossing it in the garbage to me is saying, " These engines were crap, so I need to put a "good" engine in the car. ELarson, myself and many, many other people who helped us have proven a 70 year old design Pontiac V-8 can make 3500 HP and survive. And yes I found a LS based engine that made 3600 HP. So I guess if 3500 HP won't get it done for you you need to go LS. The Pontiac V-8 can be fuel injected if carburetors are too old school. If a Pontiac V-8 is too heavy, the road race version going into ELarsons road race car is about 200 lbs. lighter than an all iron one.

Engine swaps have been going on since the infancy of Hot Rodding. I get it and it has a history in itself. But when someone says you have ripped the heart and soul out of a Pontiac by swapping in an LS, hopefully you have a better feeling for where the long time Pontiac people are coming from. Personally, I think everyone should do what makes them happy with THEIR car. It's not my car and none of my business what anyone does. I predict a GTO, Trans AM or other vintage Pontiac will have a giant battery pack and a couple electric motors any day now. Probably a few out there already. Again, none of my business.

My love for the Pontiac Brand in order. 1. Pontiac engine 2 Exterior styling 3 interior quality 4. Pontiac division history.

Sorry for the extra long post.

[Scarebird]

I would disagree.

To me what make a Pontiac is the styling - in and out- and the feel of one versus Chevrolet's offerings. Pontiacs have come with engines other than Poncho; my T/A was built with a 403. Others had 3.8's, 305's etc.

Where the Lemans is going fuel is 8-10 dollars a gallon; single digit economy won't work.

I tried EFI, not a big improvement. So I transplanted a 2020 5.3 L84 in it's place: a lot of work but the mileage is far superior, power is 400hp+ and it is a hell of a lot lighter. Coupled with a TKX it is true driver and I can get parts for it where it is going versus a StratoStreak. So I get solid, efficient power and classic styling.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Well, Pontiac Engine, Interior qualities, Exterior styling, PMD development history backed by Sales history.

The PMD V8, and OHC-6 have merits in ascetics, maintenance ease, and yea Performance.
Great engine for big cars, tow vehicles, boats, and the regular cars.

There is always some other engine making more HP somewhere. Usually in need to go high RPM to do it. Boom.

.

[getmygoat]

Most of what these cars bring is nostalgia. Throw backs to our youth. Modifications from original dilute the nostalgia for something else.

I think its that simple.

[1965gp]

Many different thoughts on this. I totally understand the ease of daily use with an LS motor, but I also like originality or period specific modifications.

Here is my main reason I do not prefer an LS motor in my old car or restomod: it dates it.

Remember all the cars that received small blocks in the 80’s and 90’s? I remember a shop telling me to pull the original motor out of my 70 LeMans and drop in a 350 Chevy. Said it was the only way go if I really wanted it to run good. I still have that car and it still has its original Pontiac 350.

In the late 90’s and early 00’s everything needed a LT-1. Every truck, every 3rd gen, every 69 Camaro and every 55-62 full size GM build. This was the ‘modern’ build- LT-1 with C4 brakes. Anybody want one of these today? The better tech LS was already out….

05-15 everything needs an LS. Literally everything from mini coopers to AMX’s to Bentley’s received an LS swap. Swap kits are designed and sold, pre-made headers, etc.. Every big build you see is LS based-they all look the same. A car with an LS and 17” CCW wheels is as common as a car in primer on Centerlines in 1982. The better tech is already coming out with the new LT-1

15+ LS based 5.3’s are the new junkyard build. Cheap turbos come Into play and every rat trap Silverado in America has 800hp. It’s not even really safe. Every build is matte black with turbo’s exiting behind the front wheels. The new LT motors, Hellcat motors and Coyote motors are suddenly becoming reasonable and everything on the street is fast.

A kid comes by my shop a year or so ago and says ‘you know if you really want this 70 LeMans to run good it needs a 5.3 and a turbo.’

My point is that if you keep cars as long as I do it doesn’t make sense to chase the latest and greatest. I have a friend with a 56 chevy that has had a crate 383, an LT-1, an LS-1 and now he is putting a new LT motor in it. If I was going to build one car and sell it then I completely understand going with whatever the modern engine at the time is.

Stock never goes out of style and rarely loses value. I think we will see a lot more carb replacement fuel injection kits where cars keep their original style motor.

[OZZIEVILLE 67 2 door]

My love for the Pontiac Brand in order. 1. Pontiac engine 2 Exterior styling 3 interior quality 4. Pontiac
Racing history.

I have always thought that the American car manufacturers had great engineering but better styling.

Downunder GMH,I believe took some styling tips from Pontiac, 1972 HQ ,Monaro, Statesman and Kingswood to name the lookers , also was the first year GM gave a coil rearend.
I like the idea of period correct, so Pontiac engine in my old Bonneville but I can't stop driving my LS Commodore aka G8 gt .
John L

[1965gp]

Great point OZ, I love my LS cars (TA, Firehawk, GTO) as well. Very well built, fun cars.

[sdbob]

I love the Pontiacs for all the reasons given. Also 2 more ,Chief Pontiac theme and working on my Pontiacs it just seems 'comfortable' like a nice chair. It fits me, logical design. All the engineers that worked and designed the Pontiacs from the start as said 'do stuff for reasons'. The market seems to promote the transplanting of LS engines with easy kits. Power steering, air,etc. My cruisers I prefer no power steering no air just the torque of the Pontiac engine.

[Elarson]

As an engineer, I appreciate the superior design of the LS engines.

As an enthusiast, the LS is just too generic to be interesting. It's so generic, it's not even a Chevy. Pontiac engines have character and "the road less traveled" aura.

I'm also a purist in that the engine brand should match the car brand. For example, if I was building a Mustang for road racing, it would HAVE to have a Ford engine to be "right". A Pontiac engine would be sacrilege in this example.

JMHO,
Eric

[Half-Inch Stud]

Hmmm, I relate to all the responses better than the original post.

My LS Observation: engine reminds me of WORK, specifically Solid-Works model-based bracketry with the Coils on the Valvecover. I Loath that. PMD Valvecovers are unfettered.

I studied the LS serpentine belt driven accessories; not bad actually but some grievences with seeing the Crank pulley extending so forward, the LH aluminum accessory bracket has more aluminum than a cylinderhead, and...a tension pulley + an idler puller. Too much.

Secret to modernizing the PMD engine is OVERDRIVE. Get one before you're too old to understand.

[necdb3]

I see it pretty simple, as a purist myself, I always want to see a Pontiac in a Pontiac. I buy the cars for the ride, sounds, smells, etc that I remember. The only way to get that to satisfaction for me is to build the car as it was built. Period!

The difference in a lot of todays builds are, people want the looks of yesterdays cars because of the styling, with the modernization of today's drivetrains. The argument if a LS in better than a Pontiac engine to me is futile. An LS engine is far superior over a Pontiac v8. I know, here it comes after making that statement. The reality is Pontiac hasn't put any modernization into their engine in nearly 50 years, Chevy has dumped countless dollars into theirs in the last 50. Let's face it, if Pontiac was still here today and spent the same dollars into engine development, where would they be today. Pontiac's engine is grossly at a understandable disadvantage.

Again, the LS powered Pontiac is not my cup of tea but it clearly is some people's, so be it.

[scott70]

In the end people will do what they want with their cars. Some people like 20" rims on old muscle cars ,,I dont. Some LS swap...its not for me but whatever. My 70 gto with out a pontiac motor is like someone or something losing some of its identity. If we all wore the same shoes because they were blasted as being the most comfortable we'd all look kinda cookie cutter with the same shoes on . There used to be many different manufacturers of snowmobiles...not any more. Same goes for alot of things. No olds,no pontiacs, no AMC ,some don't make sedans any more,etc. These companies are stream lining to the point there's 3 choices left so they can make maximum profits. We'll hear you can only get your truck in white or black because the other colors don't sell well enough so we discontinued them.

[KSZR]

I enjoy my 400 Pontiac in my 72, the 6.2 LS in my GMC truck and 6.0 LS in my 06 GTO.

The 3.5 Eco was nice in my last pickup, oops wrong brand!

[jhein]

To me the answer is, it depends. It depends on the car and how it's done. If I had a very rare car like a SD or RAIV, I wouldn't ever change it. I would certainly be open to modding the motor for more performance but keep it externally stock. OTOH, if I had a car that was not rare, then anything goes.

Somebody above mentioned nostalgia and that's what draws me (and probably most of us?) to these cars. So even though I'm open to modern drivetrain swaps and other mods to the right kind of car, I wouldn't want it to lose it's character. If I just wanted a fast car I could get something new that's not just faster but handles and stops better and is more comfortable and safer. But, it's the feel and the experience of all the flaws, smells, sounds, etc that make having and driving it fun for me. Hell, I don't even have a radio or AC and I don't miss either one the least bit.

My car is a restomod by definition but it's a stealth restomod, and I haven't done anything that's irreversible. But that's just what I chose for this car. And that's the beauty of this hobby, you can make it what you want. I generally prefer stock looking stuff but I've seen plenty of full on restomods and pro touring cars that are amazing and I'd be proud to own.

[Lemans64]

Pontiac should have a Pontiac Engine?? What about Canadian Pontiacs having Small blocks and Big Blocks? So do we still call them
Pontiac engines? Or just the Blue USA Pontiacs are Pontiac engines? Not trying to argue with anyone, my car is a Hybrid I guess, a cross
between Canadian and USA Pontiac. Not interested in the LS engines, yes they do make wicked power, but in my opinion they don't
look right in that situation. Different strokes for different folks. As long as one enjoys their ride and takes some pride in what they did is what counts
in my opinion. Yes I have had people give me a hard time because of what was under the hood, but nothing was modified that cannot be
put back to original. Enjoy the hobby and drive our rides.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by Lemans64

Pontiac should have a Pontiac Engine?? What about Canadian Pontiacs having Small blocks and Big Blocks? So do we still call them
Pontiac engines? Or just the Blue USA Pontiacs are Pontiac engines? Not trying to argue with anyone, my car is a Hybrid I guess, a cross
between Canadian and USA Pontiac. Not interested in the LS engines, yes they do make wicked power, but in my opinion they don't
look right in that situation. Different strokes for different folks. As long as one enjoys their ride and takes some pride in what they did is what counts
in my opinion. Yes I have had people give me a hard time because of what was under the hood, but nothing was modified that cannot be
put back to original. Enjoy the hobby and drive our rides.

Wow, that really throws a wrench in the gearbox! Just kidding. I guess a Canadian Pontiac is a "Canadian Pontiac". I also think some models are really cool. For people who really love the small block and big block Chevy engine, the best of both worlds ? Who wouldn't love a BBC factory installed in a Canadian 2+2? Cool car for sure. Couple people mentioned the styling, and interior as main reasons they liked Pontiacs, not really the running gear. Chevy powered Pontiac bodies and most of the interior can be had in the various Canadian models. In my own twisted vision, Canadian Pontiacs are almost like a 6th GM division. Also mentioned was what about Pontiac's that had different division engines factory installed for decades? Well that was the case in all Pontiacs after the Pontiac V-8 was cancelled in 1981 with the exception of the "Iron Duke/Tech 4". If you wanted a car with the Pontiac name on it, a "GM sourced engine was under the hood". The comment about the LS being the best GM engine ever ? What about the 3.8L/3800 V-6. Allot to love about that non-Pontiac engine that ended up in millions of Pontiacs. The Olds 403 offered right along side the Pontiac V-8? Various SBC engines installed through the years and of course actual LS engines installed until Pontiac was cancelled. GM has made some really good engines over the last 100 years. Why not showcase and celebrate them in the bodies and chassis they came in?

[nas t eh]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

I would disagree.

To me what make a Pontiac is the styling - in and out- and the feel of one versus Chevrolet's offerings. Pontiacs have come with engines other than Poncho; my T/A was built with a 403. Others had 3.8's, 305's etc.

Where the Lemans is going fuel is 8-10 dollars a gallon; single digit economy won't work.

I tried EFI, not a big improvement. So I transplanted a 2020 5.3 L84 in it's place: a lot of work but the mileage is far superior, power is 400hp+ and it is a hell of a lot lighter. Coupled with a TKX it is true driver and I can get parts for it where it is going versus a StratoStreak. So I get solid, efficient power and classic styling.

Except, what hooked me on Pontiac,( my first one was a 1975 455T/A 4 speed) was how all that torque was so easy to drive. I was doing donuts and drifting figure 8s in parking lots with three friends in the car, in the late 70’s early 80’s.

No video skills or internet back then or some of us with business savvy could have been set for life.

But I think you want to use your cars as daily drivers and for you the LS makes far more sense in that regard, I only Summer/weekend drive my old car.

[Skip Fix]

"Wow, that really throws a wrench in the gearbox! Just kidding. I guess a Canadian Pontiac is a "Canadian Pontiac". I also think some models are really cool. For people who really love the small block and big block Chevy engine, the best of both worlds ? " And some even had a Chevy 409 in them!

One of my car buddies at the gym and I talked about this a few years ago. He has a Pontiac powered 68 Firebird but he buys and sells them all. had a BAD ass Dodge 2 door pickup with a Cummins swapped in!

Long term value keeping an original engine in it. Think of all the TPI SBC swaps not too long ago. Even Chevy cars-keeping a BB in a Chevelle would be much better. I had a client with one in a 68 Firebird that was nicely done. But they sure "date" the car.

[ScumOne]

It's simple for me. I've got a 69 400 Bird with a matching #'s engine I upgraded to a lot more hp. I did upgrade the tranny to a 2004r for better cruising mpg, and it's lighter than the TH400 it came with. I wanted to keep the car as original as possible (within limitations of extra performance).

I've got an LS1 in my 98 Trans Am, it might get some love soon, but I may leave it stock.

My 2004 Le Mans Corvette has an A&A Supercharger making close to 700hp at the crank, 575 rwhp. It's got all the acceleration I need on the street for sure.

But the 69 is a classic, I'm doing selective upgrades for some more modern conveniences without doing a restomod.

My first 69 had a blown 6 OHC, I put a Chevy BB 402 into it from a Camaro SS.

I can go either way, depending on the goal. Do what you want to do, someone isn't going to like it, that's just life.

[1965gp]

I don’t mind a Chevy motor in a Canadian Pontiac- it’s different but correct. I also don’t mind the 403 in my TA’s. It drives great.

Now would you prefer to see a sbc or a LS in an old Pontiac. I think I would say sbc unless it’s a crazy build.

Let’s face it though- Most LS builds don’t reach their intended end. I support it for those that want it, but I think it is much more expensive and much more difficult to perform than most expect. The majority of LS swaps I see end up for sale in running condition needing paint, interior and suspension work.

It’s not the $2000 swap people think it is.