[Sirrotica]

Was watching you tube videos by, Rainman Ray, yesterday, he's a line technician that video tapes his everyday repairs on You Tube.

Says he never fills an oil filter, and when he shows that in his videos , he immediately gets all kinds of flak in the comments section. He states that CAT specifically recommends that techs DO NOT PREFILL filters on hydraulic, or engine oil systems for this reason.

You fill the clean side of the filter through the center hole, if there is foreign substances in the oil bottle, the bulk fill nozzle, funnel, bulk container, etc. you introduce the substance directly into the portion of the system that is supposed to have filtered oil only, bearings in an engine, pump in a hydraulic system. That will immediately damage either component.

I totally agree with this reasoning, in the last 55 plus years of wrenching, I have never prefilled any filters, and I've changed a mountain of them.

He goes on to say that in a typical automotive shop, or in the case of construction equipment being serviced in the field, that it is nearly impossible to be certain you aren't introducing some minute substances that are invisible to the naked eye, I totally agree. The small dirt causes 3.6 times more wear than 20 micron, and larger particulate does. The reason for by pass filters.

Anyway that's CAT's reason, I believe it's a valid concern.

Last time this was brought up for discussion I thoroughly researched oil filter manufacturers directions for filter installing. Not one manufacturer ever encouraged prefilling filters before installing them, but none gave a reason for not doing it.

[25stevem]

I prefer to take the time ( 4 to 5 minutes) to slowly fill my new filters to the very top, or as close as I can to get most of the air out.

Hydro systems are way different then oil that feeds the bearings.
Air in a hydro system and you just end up getting no extension because air can be compressed, air mixed in with oil going into the bearing gap where only pure oil should be can make for brief metal to metal contact and you don’t want that in the least!

Thank you but I will take my chances that there might be some some micro crap in my new oil.

besides what about the rest of the new oil that your going to add to motor once you have the new filter on, are we to pre-Filter or look at all that new oil first in a big one gallon glass jug to look for crap?

These YouTube guys many times just go out on a limb with a subject just to get it up there and make money!

I have never had problems in 55 years of doing my own oil changes with crap in new oil and I fully expect I never will!

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by 25stevem

I prefer to take the time ( 4 to 5 minutes) to slowly fill my new filters to the very top, or as close as I can to get most of the air out.

Hydro systems are way different then oil that feeds the bearings.
Air in a hydro system and you just end up getting no extension because air can be compressed, air mixed in with oil going into the bearing gap where only pure oil should be can make for brief metal to metal contact and you don’t want that in the least!

Thank you but I will take my chances that there might be some some micro crap in my new oil.

besides what about the rest of the new oil that your going to add to motor once you have the new filter primed, are we to pre-Filter or look at all that new oil first in a big one gallon glass jug to look for crap?

These YouTube guys many times just go out on a limb with a subject just to get it up there and make money!

I have never had problems with crap in new oil and I fully expect I never will!

I'm fairly certain you have nowhere near the experience I have in hydraulic systems. I've never filled a filter in any of my servicing, nor in the many service schools i attended was I ever taught to fill one.

If the dirt is microscopic, how would you see it?

Your logic makes little sense to me, but you're entitled to your opinion.

This is a holdover for the school that thinks if you start an engine with an empty filter, you stave the bearings. I've changed oil in thousands of engines, never spun a bearing upon start up.

If it's a worry, can you find any written directions that a manufacturer directs someone to prefill a filter, because I can't.

It's a non issue.

[mzbk2l]

I also don't prefill for the same reason - why dump dirty (oil/fuel/hydraulic fluid) into the clean side of a filter?

Having said that, some of our big truck filters come with a plug in the clean side so you can pre-fill from the dirty side. I do prefill those.

[Tom Vaught]

My Uncle's Pontiac/Cadillac "Oil Change Guy" put oil in the filter for over 40 years before installing the filter.
My uncle never had a single engine issue with that method for over the 65 years that he owned the business.

So you can do what you want but the many years (probably when you were not even born) data says otherwise.
And these are on top of the line GM vehicles.

You have your opinion and experience. I have my experience as do others that says differently. NBD in my mind.

Tom V.

Where does the dirty oil filter come into the discussion?
We always installed a new GM filter filled with clean oil.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

My Uncle's Pontiac/Cadillac "Oil Change Guy" put oil in the filter for over 40 years before installing the filter. My uncle never had a single engine issue with that method for over the 65 years that he owned the business.

So you can do what you want but the many years (probably when you were not even born) says otherwise. And these are on top of the line GM vehicles.

You have your opinion and experience. I have my experience as do others that says differently. NBD in my mind.

Tom V.

Well Tom, when you're working on a million dollar dozer and you screw up a pump or an engine during a PM service, it's probably not going to be taken lightly by the owner. By the same token I've never filled a filter, no problems either, and no liability because I could have contaminated a filter with anything that sticks to oily nozzles, bulk containers etc. If you ever looked in the bottom of an empty oil container, you'd be surprised how much sediment there sometimes is.

[Dragncar]

You can not pre fill all the engines with sideways filters. You can not fill the filters that are not spin on either. They do fine. I partially fill the filters on my GTO, never hurt it.
Everything a manufacturer recommends is not always correct in the big picture. This does not pertain to CAT as they care about their whole engine.
But as a millwright I have gotten into it with my boss, who I have more experience then he does BTW. About Martin tapper locks. See, he is anal about everything and knows they say they will not warranty one if you put Never Seize on it or the bolts. Well, Martin does not care about the shaft, roll or bearing their tapper lock is used with. They only care that there product does not come apart.
Never mind I have never seen one warrantied in my life. Martin does not have to take them apart, I do and have to keep a mill running.
And if I have to blow them apart with a torch from the inside to save the part they are attached too, well... downtime in a sawmill is extremely expensive.
So, do I listen to what all manufactures say about their stuff ? Yes, to a point.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

My Uncle's Pontiac/Cadillac "Oil Change Guy" put oil in the filter for over 40 years before installing the filter.
My uncle never had a single engine issue with that method for over the 65 years that he owned the business.

So you can do what you want but the many years (probably when you were not even born) data says otherwise.
And these are on top of the line GM vehicles.

You have your opinion and experience. I have my experience as do others that says differently. NBD in my mind.

Tom V.

Where does the dirty oil filter come into the discussion?
We always installed a new GM filter filled with clean oil.

Dirty side of a filter Tom, and clean side of a filter, before, and after it passes through the media. I never alluded to a dirty oil filter???

Since I pay a lot more attention to clean oil, and micron sizes, you can easily contaminate something without seeing it. Like a virus, or bacteria, did you ever know you got sick by looking for the culprit that made you sick? You never saw it, nor can you.

The stuff you can't see is what can do great damage, or accelerate wear to an unacceptable level. Just because the engine didn't spin a bearing, doesn't mean you didn't harm anything, it's not always catastrophic failure, but premature wear, that is not explained as normal. I've seen many times a premature problem in an engine that should have run 3 times as long as it did, under normal conditions. Unexplained premature failures, is what I call it, I don't know the engineers terminology for it.

[Scarebird]

I usually fill the filter - how often do you get contaminated new oil?

that said, how much oil do the various oil gallery's hold? How long does it take to drain them? a day ? a week? month?

[25stevem]

I don’t buy my oil in 55 gallon drums where the drums are picked up, refilled with a oil, but never really fully cleaned out right before refilling.
In truck fleet operations or municipalities that use bulk types of oil I can see the concern, but not with a qt by qt basis’.

[77 TRASHCAN]

I learned a lot from my engine builder/friend. His stuff is always top notch. He's semi retired, glad he and I lived in the same small Oklahoma for a while,been a while.

He had a fresh SBC engine a customer had him build.
Customer was changing oil for the first time. He drained the oil, removed the filter on a Friday. Left drain plug out. Came back a few days later, installed filter and oil. Upon start up, engine developed a knock, sounded bad.
He had used all Federal Mogul bearings. For the first time (this is in early 90's, mind you). Trailers the 1st generation Camaro, to builders shop. They started it up, were dumbfounded... pulled the engine. For whatever reason the pump didn't fill the filter fast enough. Most of the bearings were clabbered (I saw them).
I asked why, he said the first place the oil goes IS TO FILL THE FILTER. He never used Federal bearings after that. He said the Clevite bearings that he usually used would have likely survived with their tri-,metal construction. The Federal bearings looked like they were solid aluminum...maybe with a coating..

The newest bus engines I work on are Cummins. The primary fuel filters that the newest models use has a plastic cap over the center hole, to make you fill from the side of the filter.

I'm not sure where the bottleneck is in the oiling system...being microscopic???

Fuel system has microscopic protection issues. I have 3 main types of fuel separator filters. One for the 07 and older cat engines, one for the Cummins engines, and another for the newest Cummins engine.

I fill every kind of filter that CAN be filled. If the filter screws onto a vertical surface. I put SOME oil in it. And screw it on as fast as possible. Obviously spill some oil. Trying to give that engine some extra life.

I have 2 transit type buses that have HUGE oil filters. And are a huge challenge the get the threads to line up.
They don't get filled. They hold nearly a gallon of oil.

I gave up on filling them (I may invent an installation tool. Some day.......) I put the filter on and gently start the engine. First and second turn of the key. I only let the engine spin a couple of revolutions, turning engine off in between starts. On the 3rd try I spin the engine a little more. Watching the oil gage. If the needle doesn't at least bump, I turn the key off again. But usually always start the engine on the 4th try.

I FILL EVERY FILTER, possible. I use the same procedure when starting gasoline engines. But always start them on t h e 3rd try.

If an oilfilter bypasses, the whole engine is getting the full load of nasty oil. If a gnat poops in your open bottle of new clean oil. I don't see a problem

I don't intend any of these words to be harmful, in any way. It's just how I do it!!!

My engine builder is no old coot, working out of an old decrepit tin building. He's no one anyone here would know. He is a 2 time NHRA WORLD champion, in the Top alcohol dragster category. His knowledge is incredible. I wish he was still in business. The way he used to be, and hadn't moved to the Tulsa area..

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by 25stevem

I don’t buy my oil in 55 gallon drums where the drums are picked up, refilled with a oil, but never really fully cleaned out right before refilling.
In truck fleet operations or municipalities that use bulk types of oil I can see the concern, but not with a qt by qt basis’.

How about servicing construction equipment in the middle of excavation project. Again if the sediment/contaminant is under 20 microns you'll never see it. A human hair is between 70-80 microns, you'll never see it.

For the non believers that discount that new oil has particulate in it as it comes from the refinery. And it's a board member favorite too, Shell Rotella.



It comes out of the ground, it sure as hell can have dirt in it. Another great reason to run a by pass oil filter. The brand new Rotella is dirtier than the used oil that was run through a by pass filter.....

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN

I learned a lot from my engine builder/friend. His stuff is always top notch. He's semi retired, glad he and I lived in the same small Oklahoma for a while,been a while.

He had a fresh SBC engine a customer had him build.
Customer was changing oil for the first time. He drained the oil, removed the filter on a Friday. Left drain plug out. Came back a few days later, installed filter and oil. Upon start up, engine developed a knock, sounded bad.
He had used all Federal Mogul bearings. For the first time (this is in early 90's, mind you). Trailers the 1st generation Camaro, to builders shop. They started it up, were dumbfounded... pulled the engine. For whatever reason the pump didn't fill the filter fast enough. Most of the bearings were clabbered (I saw them).
I asked why, he said the first place the oil goes IS TO FILL THE FILTER. He never used Federal bearings after that. He said the Clevite bearings that he usually used would have likely survived with their tri-,metal construction. The Federal bearings looked like they were solid aluminum...maybe with a coating..

The newest bus engines I work on are Cummins. The primary fuel filters that the newest models use has a plastic cap over the center hole, to make you fill from the side of the filter.

I'm not sure where the bottleneck is in the oiling system...being microscopic???

Fuel system has microscopic protection issues. I have 3 main types of fuel separator filters. One for the 07 and older cat engines, one for the Cummins engines, and another for the newest Cummins engine.

I fill every kind of filter that CAN be filled. If the filter screws onto a vertical surface. I put SOME oil in it. And screw it on as fast as possible. Obviously spill some oil. Trying to give that engine some extra life.

I have 2 transit type buses that have HUGE oil filters. And are a huge challenge the get the threads to line up.
They don't get filled. They hold nearly a gallon of oil.

I gave up on filling them (I may invent an installation tool. Some day.......) I put the filter on and gently start the engine. First and second turn of the key. I only let the engine spin a couple of revolutions, turning engine off in between starts. On the 3rd try I spin the engine a little more. Watching the oil gage. If the needle doesn't at least bump, I turn the key off again. But usually always start the engine on the 4th try.

I FILL EVERY FILTER, possible. I use the same procedure when starting gasoline engines. But always start them on t h e 3rd try.

If an oilfilter bypasses, the whole engine is getting the full load of nasty oil. If a gnat poops in your open bottle of new clean oil. I don't see a problem

I don't intend any of these words to be harmful, in any way. It's just how I do it!!!

My engine builder is no old coot, working out of an old decrepit tin building. He's no one anyone here would know. He is a 2 time NHRA WORLD champion, in the Top alcohol dragster category. His knowledge is incredible. I wish he was still in business. The way he used to be, and hadn't moved to the Tulsa area..

And by the same token I never fill any filters, my lowest mileage vehicle is 140,000 miles, the highest is 325,000 miles, gas, and diesels. My wife just drove her 325,000 mile Vibe from Ohio to the gulf coast in Alabama and returned for her father having open heart surgery, that's 1600 miles round trip. We have owned the 325,000 mile car since brand new, never opened the engine for anything, 100% original. Every truck I own has between 215,000 miles, and the top one is 272,000 miles.

I've repaired cars driven 10 miles with the oil drained out of the crankcase, and accidently never refilled. The engine seized, and upon cooling down and refilling it, it started back up and drove. Pulled the pan, and replaced the bearings (slightly scored) polished the crank with crocus cloth, end of story.

I have seen a lot, and done a lot during the past 55 years as far as vehicles and equipment. I know what works, and what doesn't, and have built a bunch of Pontiacs for myself, and others over the years, I'm not lacking in experience, or knowledge.

The filter fillers are stirred up....

[78w72]

i have done it both ways, if the filter is more vertical theres no legitimate reason not to pour some oil in the filter, nobody here is servicing their pontiacs in a dirt field or other environment where dirt would enter the filter, quarts or gallons of oil dont have debris in them that is going to damage an engine. filling a filter is optional, but it wont harm anything.

the main reason i fill or partially fill the filter when i can, is that on some engines if you dont fill the filter there can be a noticeable noise for a half second from dry bearings or lifters etc that doesn't happen when the filter is filled. if you can hear noises from the brief moment it takes the pump to fill a bone dry filter, thats causing far more damage than possible but unlikely invisible microscopic unknown debris in new oil.

[Half-Inch Stud]

I don't always change Oil Filters, but when I do, they get filled through the center hole with Dox Equis.

[Skip Fix]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

I usually fill the filter - how often do you get contaminated new oil?

that said, how much oil do the various oil gallery's hold? How long does it take to drain them? a day ? a week? month?

Kind of my thoughts-fresh oil out of the quart you can see straight to the bottom of the filter in the clear oil..wipe any dust off the mouth. And the minute on fire up the oil pressure is still 0 worries me a little.


Galley holds at least a quart when I first filled my 455 and spinning the pump until it got steady pressure adding a quart at a time.

[70 bird]

I don't pre-fill oil or hydraulic filters, but diesel fuel filters are another story, wonder what CAT says about that?

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by 78w72

i have done it both ways, if the filter is more vertical theres no legitimate reason not to pour some oil in the filter, nobody here is servicing their pontiacs in a dirt field or other environment where dirt would enter the filter, quarts or gallons of oil dont have debris in them that is going to damage an engine. filling a filter is optional, but it wont harm anything.

the main reason i fill or partially fill the filter when i can, is that on some engines if you dont fill the filter there can be a noticeable noise for a half second from dry bearings or lifters etc that doesn't happen when the filter is filled. if you can hear noises from the brief moment it takes the pump to fill a bone dry filter, thats causing far more damage than possible but unlikely invisible microscopic unknown debris in new oil.

You really need to educate yourself about how much damage microscopic debris does to an engine. The small stuff gets into the .001 clearances where a 20 micron piece can't get into, and wears away metal. GM and SAE have both done studies that eliminating debris down to 5 microns will lessen your engine up to 8 times the wear when that microscopic particulate is free to recirculate unimpeded.

This is from an SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) paper addressing the micron range from 2-22 microns, the small stuff that people think is irrelevant:

ANALYSIS

The researchers found clearances in the Diesel and Gasoline Engines varied between 2 and 22 Microns
during engine operations. That means particles in the 2 to 22 Micron size range are most likely to damage
Engine parts. Particles smaller than 2 Microns will slip through the clearances without damaging bearing
surfaces.

CONCLUSIONS

The researchers drew the following conclusions:

Abrasive Engine wear can be substantially reduced with an increase in single pass
efficiency. Compared to a 40-Micron filter, Gasoline Engine wear was reduced by 50
percent with 30-Micron filtration. Likewise, wear was reduced by 70 percent with 15-
Micron filtration. Controlling the abrasive contaminants in the range of 2 to 22 Microns in
the lube oil is necessary for controlling Engine wear.

“The Micron rating of a filter as established in a single pass efficiency type test, does an excellent job
indicating the filter’s ability to remove abrasive particles in the Engine lube oil system.”
The smallest particles most popular “full Flow” filters capture with high efficiency are sized 25 to 40 Microns, depending on the filter brand.

The small stuff most people think is benign, isn't benign by a long shot. As I already posted, the small stuff is 3.6 times more damaging than the larger particulate is. Education is the key to understanding what is bad for engine wear, or you can always read opinions on the internet.

[Sirrotica]

Did anyone bother to read the picture showing how many, and what size particulate is in a new bottle of Rotella oil, checked by a third party?

I posted it as evidence that new oil isn't pristine, like many readers think it is.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by 70 bird

I don't pre-fill oil or hydraulic filters, but diesel fuel filters are another story, wonder what CAT says about that?

Most diesel engines can be filled with either running the electric lift pump, or if they're manual they usually have a lever to manually pump the filters full, and bleed the system. As sensitive as injection systems are to dirt, I would imagine they want the fluid sent to the filter, and filtered through it, same as if it were running. I never fill them when servicing a machine or my trucks, always pump it through the filters.