[6TEE8GTO]

I am looking at another 1968 GTO that is reasonably priced for my wife. I'm not clear on the "numbers matching" info, as I had thought that there should be a spot on the block where part of the VIN # sequence is stamped on it, I had thought that was on the block above the two-letter code. I thought the the last few digits of the VIN # are part of the numbers stamped on the block by the 2-letter code? The seller is trying to tell me I'm wrong, and when I search I find conflicting statements. Some sites say the engine "production number" has nothing to do with the VIN, yet I have seen people selling cars posting pictures of a engine number showing digits of the VIN in it? This particular engine does have correct "16" heads and a YS block, (400 4 bbl auto trans) the seller has owned the car since 1998 and has all kinds of papers including the original order sheet and dealership papers. I am sure that 1968 GTO's have engines stamped somewhere with digits of the VIN#, but where? I thought only older GTO's were the ones where you had "correct date codes" you could check but no way to tell if it's truly the original engine. I didn't worry about this with my current GTO, as I knew when I bought it that it was a NOM car.
I think I'm right and this is not the original engine, the serial number by the YS has no sequence of numbers close to the VIN # of the body.

Any insight appreciated.

[6TEE8GTO]

Hmmm... I found a website that says the number above the 2-leter code is an engine PRODUCTION number and will show up on a PHS document and is not the VIN, the vin is off to the side of the timing cover?

http://www.teufert.net/identify/identify.htm

[6TEE8GTO]

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/find...tml#post709284

[Region Warrior]

Before 67 Pontiac used an EUN(engine unit number). Located where you said.
68 and up Pontiac stamped last 6 digits of vin # in same place.
I have a YS block out of 68 GTO built in Nov of 67. It has the vin stamp.
The 2 letter stamp is the engine type.
YS was base 400/16 heads in GTO's with A/C.

[marxjunk]

heres a pic

[6TEE8GTO]

Originally Posted by Region Warrior

Before 67 Pontiac used an EUN(engine unit number). Located where you said.
68 and up Pontiac stamped last 6 digits of vin # in same place.
I have a YS block out of 68 GTO built in Nov of 67. It has the vin stamp.
The 2 letter stamp is the engine type.
YS was base 400/16 heads in GTO's with A/C.

Ok now I'm getting confused again... LOL... Are you saying that up near the "YS", that number above it should have the VIN sequence?? Mark just posted a pix that seems to be in line with what I read on that other site? To clarify what I think to be correct- on a '68 block there should be THREE "codes"
1. The two-letter identifier such as YS or WT or whatever just below the passenger side cylinder head.
2. The Engine "unit number" located above the 2-letter code, which has nothing to do with VIN#
3. The VIN number (partial) stamped sideways down farther by the timing cover, possibly partially covered by the installed timing cover

is this correct?

[marxjunk]

yes

[Region Warrior]

Havent looked at it for couple yrs. Will check tonight and report back 2maro or Monday.

[Greg Reid]

Originally Posted by 6TEE8GTO

To clarify what I think to be correct- on a '68 block there should be THREE "codes"
1. The two-letter identifier such as YS or WT or whatever just below the passenger side cylinder head.
2. The Engine "unit number" located above the 2-letter code, which has nothing to do with VIN#
3. The VIN number (partial) stamped sideways down farther by the timing cover, possibly partially covered by the installed timing cover

is this correct?

Yes, X2.
The engine unit number is up by the engine code. The partial VIN is (usually) stamped vertically down by the lower radiator hose inlet on the water pump.
While it's true that the engine unit number has nothing to do with the VIN, it can still very be useful on '68s as it is also listed on the billing history sheet, which comes with the PHS packet.

So, if it's a 'matching numbers' engine, you can verify it by the partial VIN AND the EUN.

[6TEE8GTO]

Originally Posted by Greg Reid

Yes, X2.
The engine unit number is up by the engine code. The partial VIN is (usually) stamped vertically down by the lower radiator hose inlet on the water pump.
While it's true that the engine unit number has nothing to do with the VIN, it can still very be useful on '68s as it is also listed on the billing history sheet, which comes with the PHS packet.

So, if it's a 'matching numbers' engine, you can verify it by the partial VIN AND the EUN.

Perfect. Thanks Greg!

Do you guys see any value in a bench seat/column shift GTO? I know they are somewhat rare, but that was only because most wanted a dual-gate and buckets. This car is pretty solid, spent much of it's life in California (trunk and floor pans are near perfect) but it needs a lot of work to even be a driver car. It appears that it DOES have the original engine and transmission. The interior is in very nice original shape, the dash pad has no cracks, he has the parts for the A/C. Has hideaways, came on it new. Paint is older and was not the best job, has some over-spray in several places but it clearly was just a crappy re-paint, this car was never rusty, you can tell.
Can get it for 10K...

[dataway]

Sounds like the seller is arguing the meaning of the phrase "matching numbers" to some it means all the date codes are correct and all the major pieces of the vehicle "could" have concievably been orgianally assembled together.

In the case of 68 GTO's numbers matching usually means original engine (or documented service replacement), and orginal trans .... as these two major components had the VIN stamped on them. (at least I know auto trans did). Along with the previously mentioned appropriate date codes.

And yes, my 68 YS code block, sitting on the stand downstairs has the "YS" code in the upper left (looking at the front of the engine), with the production number right above it, and then has a number stamped on the lower left, a nine digit number which includes the last 8 digits of the VIN.

As seen below.

JohnnyB

['ol Pinion head]

Originally Posted by 6TEE8GTO

Perfect. Thanks Greg!

Do you guys see any value in a bench seat/column shift GTO? I know they are somewhat rare, but that was only because most wanted a dual-gate and buckets. This car is pretty solid, spent much of it's life in California (trunk and floor pans are near perfect) but it needs a lot of work to even be a driver car. It appears that it DOES have the original engine and transmission. The interior is in very nice original shape, the dash pad has no cracks, he has the parts for the A/C. Has hideaways, came on it new. Paint is older and was not the best job, has some over-spray in several places but it clearly was just a crappy re-paint, this car was never rusty, you can tell.
Can get it for 10K...

In my neck of the woods, '68 GTO's with auto & a/c have always been easy to come up with as projects. There are a ton of '68's languishing in different stages of driver condition to disrepair. Before I bought a non original engine bench seat '68 GTO, I'd send off for a copy of the original invoice from PHS & see if the car was a factory 400 2bbl, originally a YS 400 engine car, or an original 400 HO car.

Personally like factory bench seat cars, but have no interest in putting a lot of money in what was a factory economy engine car (the 400 2bbl car). Over the years, I've come across a bunch of '67 & 68 400 2bbl GTO's. Earlier this week, was in a yard where for many years there were three bench seat '67 GTO's. One was a post car with an XM 400 2bbl, column shift auto, a/c, another was a hardtop that previously was an XM 2bbl, the last had been stripped of a lot of good parts but was another post car, bench seat, factory rally guages, 4 piston disc, Safe-T-Track & originally 400 HO. I sent off for a copy of the invoice on the latter one over 20 years ago after I examined the front brake line routing. Guess which car was purchased & had a bunch of $$$$ dumped into it.

[Simple Man]

If the price is right, and the car is halfway decent, I wouldn't let a column shift/bench seat stop the purchase.

[salem1912]

My car is the factory bench seat,automatic on the column. 400/350 hp.

[Greg Reid]

Originally Posted by Simple Man

If the price is right, and the car is halfway decent, I wouldn't let a column shift/bench seat stop the purchase.

Agree.

[6TEE8GTO]

Well... It's been verified that the this is the original engine and trans, it has the original QJ also. The car needs so much work but it looks good from 50 feet. In the pix it looks nice put in person there's a lot of things to be concerned about. Overspray on the hideways, seems to have some electrical issues, and to me the headers and dumps gotta go! It has a rear swaybar. Engine runs on 7 cylinders, tranny slips badly, A/C parts are there in a box. He has the original wheels but they are in poor shape. The tires on it are very old, more than 12 years. Attached some pix...

[6TEE8GTO]

Interior pix...

[Simple Man]

If the money is right, I wouldn't kick it out of my garage.

[Greg Reid]

Well, I guess it depends on what you're looking for. If you're looking for a car that you can just toss the keys to the wife and say 'Have fun'...I can see your point.
As a project car though, it looks very solid. Paint, wiring and engine work is almost to be expected in a project car.
What I look for is completeness of the car and as little rust repair as possible. In those categories, looks like a good bet...Price notwithstanding, as that's a different subject.

[Unclesamscandy]

Originally Posted by Greg Reid

Yes, X2.
The engine unit number is up by the engine code. The partial VIN is (usually) stamped vertically down by the lower radiator hose inlet on the water pump.
While it's true that the engine unit number has nothing to do with the VIN, it can still very be useful on '68s as it is also listed on the billing history sheet, which comes with the PHS packet.

So, if it's a 'matching numbers' engine, you can verify it by the partial VIN AND the EUN.

First, I want to say that Greg summed up the engine identification aspect perfectly and for reference this is the bona fide way to inspect this.

Second, the bench and column shift is not an issue to most people if the car is all-around solid and original matching in numbers as to engine/tranny/rear end. It sounds like you are getting a car that can be driven for fun with a certain amount of 'fix-it' work. If you end up doing a frame off resto on the car, please don't expect to get a return on your investment FINANCIALLY. It is a 68 coupe with no "Ram Air" or "H.O." heritage, nor is it a ragtop. So when all is said and done, if you dumped 30 grand into the car after buying it for 10,000- you may end up being 15-20 thousand under water should you go to sell her later. To many people, money is not a factor, until it IS a factor.

Please don't flame me, but I know lots of car people who needed to send kids to expensive college, pay for medical bills for sick loved ones, or lost their jobs- then needed to liquidate their cars and car collections to come up with cold cash. Just bear that in mind when choosing a project car. You may find a Judge, ragtop or H.O. car for a little more money if you are going to do a full restoration, and at the end of the job then the car with the better pedigree will attract better return.

I certainly respect all decisions as to why a person likes a certain car- but I like to boil it down to dollars and cents for people when they are working stiffs like most of us here are. I know lots of people including ME who have lost money on cars, so I suggest you be careful.