[U47]

Hey Larry, get a load of this !! Reverse flow on a 455 !
http://image.hotrod.com/f/38825464+w...n%2bengine.jpg

[Safari Larry]

That's a 455? They dressed it up nicely to look '57 Pontiac. Heads give it away as not being '57 though. I wonder if they used the distributing tubes in the heads.

[alleyCat]

Pretty cool PCV system. The road draft tube has to be open to evacuate the crankcase. It looks like the left valve cover is pulling air into the aircleaner and the right side is connected to vacuum. If there was no open draft tube on this setup there would be no way to pull air INTO the engine since the valve covers are both under vacuum.

[U47]

Originally Posted by alleyCat

Pretty cool PCV system. The road draft tube has to be open to evacuate the crankcase. It looks like the left valve cover is pulling air into the aircleaner and the right side is connected to vacuum. If there was no open draft tube on this setup there would be no way to pull air INTO the engine since the valve covers are both under vacuum.

If that is the case it would be pulling all the dirty air from beneath the car into the engine. Actually the reverse direction for Crankcase Ventilation.

[alleyCat]

Yep but that's how his system is working.

[Burningbird]

Originally Posted by alleyCat

Pretty cool PCV system. The road draft tube has to be open to evacuate the crankcase. It looks like the left valve cover is pulling air into the aircleaner and the right side is connected to vacuum. If there was no open draft tube on this setup there would be no way to pull air INTO the engine since the valve covers are both under vacuum.

If I block the road draft tube the engine will pull fresh air from the aircleaner into the left side valve cover and via the hose on the right side valve cover it will evacuate crankcase fumes into the PCV valve on the intake plenum (unless under heavy acceleration). The only difference on the later Pontiac engines is that they evacuate the crankcase via the valley pan instead of one valve cover?

[Burningbird]

Originally Posted by Safari Larry

On to another subject related to the photos of the engine... The water line routing does not appear to be correct, specifically the waterlines that go across the top of the engine to the heater appear to be incorrect. I think those hoses should not be there and the water nipple on the intake manifold should be connected directly to the nipple on the front cover (routes to water pump inlet). This is the diagram of water circulation in the 1960 Shop Manual. Note the "RECIRCULATION HOSE". That allows circulation of water through the engine during warmup.


In your configuration, circulaton of water would happen only if the heater valve is open (heat on). I would suspect that in your configuration, engine warmup would be slow if the heater valve is closed.

I'm no expert on '60 heater hose routing but I thought heater inlet water was taken from front of head (I see a nipple on passenger's side head attached to a hose in your photo -- but don't know where it goes).

You are right, I do not know why they have mounted the heater hoses like this. I will replace the hoses and fit them properly.

[mgarblik]

Early emissions stuff is interesting to me so I looked pretty carefully through the 60 and 61 chassis manuals I have here. The 60 manual makes no mention at all about a "positive crankcase vent" system. It has the typical drawing of the road draft tube with the arrows. What is interesting though is the 61 manual has that same picture with the draft tube and arrows showing flow. But in the fuel chapter there is a 2 page system that describes removing the draft tube and installing a PCV system similar to the one pictured. The parts don't look the same, the big difference being the fresh air enters one valve cover through a regular breather, rather than the flat piece attached to the air cleaner as pictured. So for 61 at least, this must have been a dealer installed accessory package of some type. Need someone with access to Craftsman News archives from that time. It has the "factory" look to me and looks like it has been on that car forever. The 61 service manual instructs to remove the draft tube when installing the "PCV" system. Possibly the car in question had a dealer installed system installed incorrectly?

[Poncho60]

As far as the heater hose routing goes......per my 1960 HVAC manual the top heater core connection goes to the lower radiator connection point and the lower heater core connection goes to the "elbow" connection that's on the front of the passenger side head. The manual shows the lower heater core connection going to the top of the intake manifold but that's incorrect unless there was a running change made, as my car is not that way. Maybe it was a holdover diagram from 1959? The actual routing of the heater hoses goes thru a sheet metal loop or band that is on top of the cross member, if that is of any use.

[U47]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Early emissions stuff is interesting to me so I looked pretty carefully through the 60 and 61 chassis manuals I have here. The 60 manual makes no mention at all about a "positive crankcase vent" system. It has the typical drawing of the road draft tube with the arrows. What is interesting though is the 61 manual has that same picture with the draft tube and arrows showing flow. But in the fuel chapter there is a 2 page system that describes removing the draft tube and installing a PCV system similar to the one pictured. The parts don't look the same, the big difference being the fresh air enters one valve cover through a regular breather, rather than the flat piece attached to the air cleaner as pictured. So for 61 at least, this must have been a dealer installed accessory package of some type. Need someone with access to Craftsman News archives from that time. It has the "factory" look to me and looks like it has been on that car forever. The 61 service manual instructs to remove the draft tube when installing the "PCV" system. Possibly the car in question had a dealer installed system installed incorrectly?

That other bit is for cars from California, and to retrofit 49 state cars to Ca. emissions

[U47]

Originally Posted by Poncho60

As far as the heater hose routing goes......per my 1960 HVAC manual the top heater core connection goes to the lower radiator connection point and the lower heater core connection goes to the "elbow" connection that's on the front of the passenger side head. The manual shows the lower heater core connection going to the top of the intake manifold but that's incorrect unless there was a running change made, as my car is not that way. Maybe it was a holdover diagram from 1959? The actual routing of the heater hoses goes thru a sheet metal loop or band that is on top of the cross member, if that is of any use.

Yes, my 59's also goes to the lower radiator. 1960 cars are the first start of change. In 60, the lower heater hose still goes to the radiator bottom tank, but the other heater hose depending on another change is removed from the intake and now goes to the rt ft. head where the rt. side discharge tube for the gusher system went. Later it reappeared on the front of the rt hand side of the intake, where it remained until manifolds were changed and the rt. rear of the head was used for the heater hose. The lower heater hose was moved in 1961 from the lower radiator tank to the timing cover right above the lower radiator hose connects to the cover. see link;
http://image.hotrod.com/f/10612632+w...a%2Bengine.jpg

[alleyCat]

I found a blurb on a Cadillac forum stating that California cars prior to 1961 had no emission gear . 1955 to 1960 cars had to be retrofitted with emissions parts if the car changed registered owners. No way to verify but kind of makes sense.

[U47]

Originally Posted by alleyCat

I found a blurb on a Cadillac forum stating that California cars prior to 1961 had no emission gear . 1955 to 1960 cars had to be retrofitted with emissions parts if the car changed registered owners. No way to verify but kind of makes sense.

That is correct. What this devise did was to block off vacuum advance to the distributor, seal the vacuum port on the manifold/carburetor and vacuum diaphragm with a plug. and install a PCV system
What we had were a hole bunch of cars that got terrible mileage and overheated. They, Ca. government, retracted the law after countless Ca. residents lost their engines.

[alleyCat]

Ahhh... Graet when the gov gets involved and fixes the world for us, only to figure out they were wrong. Do you think the setup on the OP's 60 was a Pontiac dealer retrofit ?

[mgarblik]

U47, understand the clarification so my question would be: Do you think the OP's car has a dealer installed system?. Also, should the draft tube have been removed when they put it on?

[U47]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

U47, understand the clarification so my question would be: Do you think the OP's car has a dealer installed system?. Also, should the draft tube have been removed when they put it on?

Not a factory installed devise, just a Ca. approved devise. Dealer could have installed it like any other smog station at that time period. The one I mentioned before ( carb/manifold vacuum hose to distributor disconnect and timing specification/idle speed adjustment change ) was a kit Echlin made. This retrofit was for a very short time before all these engines started blowing up and the law was changed.

[Burningbird]

Thanks again for all the feedback! I 'll probably just block of the road draft tube for now and remove it later if I rebuild the engine. My engine has the "elbow" on the front of the passenger side head and no connection on the intake manifold like the 1960 Shop Manual shows. I found this photo that I think is correct way to mount the heater hoses?

[U47]

Originally Posted by Burningbird

Thanks again for all the feedback! I 'll probably just block of the road draft tube for now and remove it later if I rebuild the engine. My engine has the "elbow" on the front of the passenger side head and no connection on the intake manifold like the 1960 Shop Manual shows. I found this photo that I think is correct way to mount the heater hoses?

The best thing to do would be to install your crankcase system back to it's stock configuration.

[Green Hornet]

Well.....6 years later...if anybody is still tuned in.

A friend recently bought a 61 Bonneville......

He brought it by last week....and it appears to be leaking a fair bit of dirty oil from the crankcase vent tube...

The 389 appears to be original...and runs great....no tailpipe smoke...

It didn't appear to have a filter on the vent tube...but I can't see a filter helping much with this..

Need to investigate further.......could there be a baffle in the lifter gallery that was left out/off..?

The valve cover breather caps appear to be original style..

Just looking for some input before I investigate.

[tom s]

When I got my 61 I just pulled the draft tube and put in a gromet for the PCV and just used it like later engines.FWIW,Tom