[TAKerry]

JS, I love it too. Great looking car. I always liked the new camaro. Bought my wife a new mustang conv. a few years ago for payment to her for putting up with my 77 build. I was pushing a Camaro hard to her but she has been a mustang girl since day one. Its also a really nice car.

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by TAKerry

JS, I love it too. Great looking car. I always liked the new camaro. Bought my wife a new mustang conv. a few years ago for payment to her for putting up with my 77 build. I was pushing a Camaro hard to her but she has been a mustang girl since day one. Its also a really nice car.

Thanks! Has bad blind spots. But that's my only gripe. Just gotta go fast enough to be confident nobody is in your blind spot. lol

[GTOnly70]

Originally Posted by R 70 Judge

The only thing uglier than a modern Camaro

Yeah, no.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by TAKerry

JS, I love it too. Great looking car. I always liked the new camaro. Bought my wife a new mustang conv. a few years ago for payment to her for putting up with my 77 build. I was pushing a Camaro hard to her but she has been a mustang girl since day one. Its also a really nice car.

Agree that Camaro pictured looks nice. My wife also ended up with a 2011 Mustang GT 6-speed. She drove both a Hemi Challenger with a 6-speed and a Camaro with a 6-speed. She is 5' 2" tall and small stature. She felt the Challenger was too big and bulky for her. Heavy steering, very high doors and kind of spongy and unresponsive. The Camaro just didn't fit her well either. She had to have the steering wheel in her face/chest to operate the clutch. She couldn't see out of the car in any direction, even with the seat all the way up. She loved the way the Camaro sounded, the instant torque and the acceleration was mentioned several times. But I could see the car just didn't fit her. It was also the most expensive of the 3 cars we looked at by almost 7K in the case of the Camaro. I reluctantly took her to a Ford dealer to look at a Mustang with the new 5.0L engine. She instantly fell in love with the way she fit in that car. She could see out the front and sides and even out the back a little. The clutch operation was light and perfect for her shorter legs. It took her a couple blocks of driving to get used to the lack of torque from the OHC engine. But after stalling it a couple times she got the feel of letting it rev more to launch the car from a stop especially on a hill. IMO, the quality of the interior, dash, door panels, console, seats, was much higher grade than the Camaro and Challenger. Exterior styling was OK to me. Wasn't crazy about the rear end look. But that's purely subjective. Bottom line is 50% + of all new car buyers are women. If the car doesn't fit half the buyers and make them feel welcome and comfortable, that's one reason Camaro sales tanked. Also, my wife's Mustang GT Premium, 6-speed was just a tick under 30K new in 2011. The similarly equipped Camaro was just over 37K. That's quite a difference and the Chevy dealer didn't act like they cared a less if they sold it or not. Ford dealer was happy to order a car exactly like we wanted or sell us one in stock or trade from another dealer. They wanted to sell a car.

[kingbuzzo]

They aren't bad looking cars at all imho...I just don't know how anyone can afford a new anything these days

Competition is a good thing...

[JSchmitz]

I bought mine 5-1/2 years ago. It had 22k on it. I payed 23k for it. The sticker was 46k. It had 3" exhaust system and an intake filter system. I felt pretty good about it. At the time I coulda bought a used ZL1 for about 35-40. They are insanely high now.

[72projectbird]

Originally Posted by The Champ

Yet the Dodge is the first one to go by the wayside and the Mustang was the first one to have an EV version....

I guess I'm a 1%er, as I could care less about a slightly better 0 - 60 time if the car will actually be fun to drive on a windy twisty road. Neither the Challenger or the Mustang are really a 'highway warrior', but the Challenger does have a much bigger trunk that Mopar fans are really quick to point out (priorities...)

I'm a big fan of the heads up display, which eliminates the Mustang and Challenger. Ford does offer HUD on the Escape - Mopar has it on a Ram PU.

Styling is subjective - the Challenger looks like a bloated whale to me (and is soooo heavy it won't handle) and the Mustang is just ok.

Funny you say that every brand of GM product is disgusting looking with the exception of GMC. GMC doesn't make a single car and every truck or car they sell is a clone of the comparable Cadillac, Buick or Chevy they sell.

The Cadillac CT4/CT5 is better looking than either the Challenger or the Mustang, IMHO, and are available in 472 HP (CT4) and 668 HP (CT5) versions that can do the 1/4 mile in 11 (CT5) to 12 (CT4) seconds for those so inclined while running circles around a Mustang or Challenger in the windy twisties.

Your results may vary...

Dodge was the first to go, but they went out without having to redesign a chassis for their entire run. Plus numbers dont lie, it kicked the crap out of the Camaro for years and years. I'd say they did damn good.

The "Mustang EV" is in name only. They still have the regular Mustang.

Both the Mustang and Challenger/Charger are definitely highway warriors. Cars that are comfortable, and pull like a freight train. The Camaro was no slouch, but GM put more emphasis in areas where 99% of people either didn't care, or couldn't benefit from.

And me saying GMC was the best looking wasn't by accident. GM has proven to screw up the design of everything they touch. I thought pickup trucks were immune to their incompetence, but the new Silverado looks like ass. Looks like an Autobot. At least the Sierra is sorta acceptable in the looks department.

I'll admit I forgot about Cadillac. The only Caddys I see are Escalades, which look pretty good, but I hate how GM went away from the solid rear axle on their full size suvs. The CT4/5 are decent enough looking, but I dont consider them muscle cars.

[kingbuzzo]

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/03/24/camaro-rip-opinion/

[JSchmitz]

^^^drool^^^

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by 72projectbird

...
While GM was routinely touting track lap times, handling characteristics, and technology implementation, Mopar and Ford were building cars for the regular guy. 0-60 times, 1/4 mile times, and comfortable interiors. The same stuff that sold muscle cars back in the day, still sells them today. ...

Bingo!

The Challenger is the biggest of the three, but it's also the most useable...
I have loved them from day #1.
Too bad I could never afford (or justify affording?) one.

I did rent them a couple times when visiting my mom in California - and even the R/T-auto (read: 5.7L), I loved the seat time I had in them.

[stevesbirds]

When Pontiac G8 went away, it had 18,000 units. It was the one bright mark coming out of Pontiac. A recession killed Pontiac off, and the gov't just pulled the cord on life support. Pissed us all off, royally! GM managers said it would surface as something else. Well that was a closeted project if there ever was one.

I need a service vehicle that gets 25 mpg and can be packed out with tool boxes and ladders. Guess what, every darn brand killed off their mini transit category panel or passenger van. So WHY? The suspension and unibody don't cater to 1000 lbs of battery.

The Ford E-transit has a paltry 130 mile range. That doesn't get me to the job let alone back. Yes its better on all performance aspects, until you hit 0 degrees F. THen it's 130 mile range drops around 1/3 to somewhere between 55 mile and 85 mile. If temp hit -20, just stay in. Not worth it being stuck along a shoulder with a transmission that doesn't roll in N.

A next gen kid admired my Volt this week. OK, odd. It's a great looking car, but it too lacks enough height for my normal stature, and could not handle my relatives at 6'2". The high rear blocks views, just like Camaro. At least it has rear camera. And space or not, at least I can get to jobs with a small wagon, so that 285,000 mile Subaru I just picked up cheap is my solution to the forced E migration.

Tesla and others are in the 2.0 second range on Plaid. Cannot see NASCAR keeping things alive in lower center of gravity race cars running electric equivalent physics numbers. But I do bet the electrics rule on road performance, just because of weight distribution, lowered center of graviy, 4 wheel motors, and handling already being a well tuned science. We can hope that keeps things lively when fuel hits $10 a gallon.

[goat69SD]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

Bingo!

The Challenger is the biggest of the three, but it's also the most useable...
I have loved them from day #1.
Too bad I could never afford (or justify affording?) one.

I did rent them a couple times when visiting my mom in California - and even the R/T-auto (read: 5.7L), I loved the seat time I had in them.

Here as well on the Challenger! Never been a Camaro fan. I owned one for a short time. And the newer models just never caught on very well. Kind of like the Corvette , I have owned an older one and a new one and didn't care for or keep either . I don't like putting my cars on like a pair of pants. But I sure don't like seeing the old cars and old brands go away. I don't understand why the Pontiac went away because they were popular for decades. As far as electric cars are concerned I will NEVER own one. For many reasons that I won't get into as I don't talk politics or the whole climate thing.

[GT182]

Pontiac started screwing up in the 80s with a lot of their models and continued with it to the end. Models didn't sell because of poor engineering. People faithful to Pontiac had had enough. Same with Oldsmobile. I agree Buick should have gone, but the "older" buyers would have gone nuts with GM canceling them. Now that I'm in the "older" bracket, I still can't see why Buick is still around.

[w72]

I've been in a ton of newer muscle/pony cars, and it's hard to deny that the performance and driving dynamics are on-point. Not so much with the Mopar stuff unless you're going in a straight line, but all the current offerings are superior on paper to what we grew up with.

The thing that's missisng is the visceral experience of driving a purely analog machine. The first time I really got my head around the difference was late 2000's, I almost bought a Z06. At the time my daily was an autocross-prepped '95 Formula, just shy of 400hp. The Corvette was faster, easier to drive, rode better, and cornered/stopped almost as hard, but it was just boring compared to the modded Firebird. By extention, the '95 Formula felt boring compared to my 2nd-gen car.

The new stuff is very capable, but it's hard to feel cool when the doorsill comes up to your chin, the dash is ugly as sin, and computers are keeping the pointy end facing the right direction.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by 72projectbird

Plus numbers dont lie, it kicked the crap out of the Camaro for years and years. I'd say they did damn good.

Remind me again on the Challenger's time (the numbers) around the Nürburgring...

If you're only interested in driving in a straight line and having a larger trunk, of course the Challenger will kick the crap out of the Camaro.

If I'm looking for a pony car, I'm not worried about trunk space.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

Bingo!

The Challenger is the biggest of the three, but it's also the most useable...

The Challenger is a better family car, I get that.

But a CT5 V Blackwing is an even better family car that will dramatically out handle a Challenger and is nearly as fast in a straight line, if that matters to you.

Try driving one and report back. Heck, even try driving the plain-Jane CT5 V and compare it to the RT you rented.

[KS circutguy]

I’m going to make a bold prediction and say that this most certainly will not be the last Dodge ICE muscle car, unless they go out of business after trying to go all-EV.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by The Champ

Remind me again on the Challenger's time (the numbers) around the Nürburgring...

If you're only interested in driving in a straight line and having a larger trunk, of course the Challenger will kick the crap out of the Camaro.

If I'm looking for a pony car, I'm not worried about trunk space.

Nurburgring times do NOT translate into REALITY. I’m 6’7” tall/340 lbs (think an NFL defensive tackle). I have driven both a Challenger and my wife’s ‘14 Camaro LS convertible. For me, the Challenger has more leg and shoulder room plus it doesn’t beat you to death like the Camaro does. Three hours in a Camaro is nearly inhumane punishment! An hour and a half on a warm fall day with the top down? A pleasant distraction from life. BTW…drove the Camaro through both Philly and D.C. on the way back to FL(where we lived when she bought it). I was nine years younger but I still found it uncomfortable at the three hour mark.

[pont3]

Personally, I like the Camaro MUCH more than the Challenger or Mustang. I spend lots of time in each of them every week, but would not buy either one. They are ALL equally difficult to see out of but in my opinion the Camaro is the best looking of the three, and the best driving. I do, however, wish that GM would bring back a midsize coupe powered by a V8. Until then, I'll keep my '04 and '06 GTOs.

[jerry455]

My wife is on her 3rd Camaro, 2010 V6 LS , 2013 SS and a 2017 2SS. The latest one is by far the best. She is 5'3" and absolutely loves everything about her car. She drives it year-round here in the Detroit Metro area. The 6th gen is amazing. The power in the "standard" LT1 is amazing and it handles great. She does not complain about all of the things that seem to bother others. She smiles every time she starts her car, and it growls back. My old boss was the chief engineer on the car, Al Oppenheiser, and they did a great job. GM did a horrible job of advertising the car. Dodge has done a fantastic job on their advertising. Who doesn't smile when they see them tearing around the road or parking lot. If we didn't have the Camaro, I could see us owning a Challenger. I used to have a 1971 R/T and still have fond memories of it.