[GPMESQ]

I am changing my engine wire harness and needed to remove the starter wires. No problem, its 2 bolts and the starter drops, right?

Well, 4 hours later, after removing the rear starter mount (which was still in place), the front cover on the bell housing and braking off the starter rear mounting stud (anyone know where I can buy one?) this starter will not drop...no way, no how, will this starter come down.

I was able to remove the wires but really want the starter out of the way as I plan to install the Ram Air tube for the cables and wires...WTF...any one have a reasonable explanation as to why this starter will not clear the cross member/oil pan?

Should the starter come straight forward and the back (actually the front) drop out of the bell housing or nose dive the starter, front down at an angle, straight down and out? Neither way works, but I was wondering which way should work.

BTW, does a 400/350 YS motor has a 5 quart capacity with filter or is it 6 quarts?

[66Post]

It should come out nose first in an aft direction. Remove the header pipe if you have to. You said "2 wires", should be 3 as I recall, 2 on the solenoid big terminal and 1 on the solenoid small terminal. I went to a Summit mini 5 years ago so I don't have that issue any longer.

[U47]

Is your starter disconnected from the front starter motor brace?
# 25
http://www.tpocr.com/images/IPC/engelectipc.jpg

To remove the starter leave the harness attached for the moment, remove nut and washer ( # 24 & 25 ) then remove the two block mounting bolts # 27 slip the starter rearward to clear the front bracket # 25 and drop down the starter motor down just low enough so that you can remove the wires from the starter motor. Once the wires are off the starter is free to come down.
Note; sometimes you will have to loosen the front starter brace for clearance.

[Chipper7]

I also went with a mini starter that does not have that rear bracket but it should drop right down unless it is still engaged and hanging up on the flywheel.

[GPMESQ]

Originally Posted by U47

Is your starter disconnected from the front starter motor brace?

The bracket was in place but the starter not bolted to it...I thought I had to remove it in order to get the starter out so I did...that was fun...starter moved much further forward but will still not clear the bell housing.

Should I re-use the bracket? I have never had one in place on any other GM motor and the starter was always fine with just the 2 bolts into the block.

I also broke the mounting stud and would need another for the starter; can you buy that alone?

[66Post]

The bracket was attached to the motor, but not the started in my case. Never used the bracket and no need to now with a mini in place.

[GPMESQ]

Originally Posted by 66Post

The bracket was attached to the motor, but not the started in my case. Never used the bracket and no need to now with a mini in place.

Anyone actually using this bracket on thier starter?

[Chipper7]

Originally Posted by GPMESQ

Anyone actually using this bracket on thier starter?

No I am not using that bracket

[U47]

Originally Posted by GPMESQ

Anyone actually using this bracket on thier starter?

First, I like using the bracket. It is not bolted to the front of the starter-there is no bolt. The starter has a long stud sticking out the front and you use a flat washer locking washer and nut to attach to the bracket. The way I look at it is some engineer who knows more that me about the stress levels on that heavy thing out there put the bracket out there for a reason. Or maybe he put it there for ease of installation.
The long stud sticking out and the slot in the bracket are also used for installing the starter. Instead of balancing that starter in your hand installing it and the wires, you can push the starter up there and rest the stud in the slot of the bracket, you still have to hold it, but only to keep it temporarily in place and this makes it easy to push and put the harness back into it's place while the starter is slightly down in the back. Now while it's resting in the bracket it much easier to locate the holes for the bolts for the starter. Absolutely no problem doing it this fast and easy way if your mechanically inclined and understand the reasoning for the brackets existence. If you've got a mini starter you don't need it because they are light weight and small.

[gtohurstjudge]

Ditch the starter bracket......I threw mine away in 1972 and my starter hasn't fallen off yet! That bracket is a major pain in the *** and has no function other than to irritate the
hell out of you when working on the starter. Another bracket I threw away in 1972 is the rear lower A/C compressor bracket that goes from the middle cylinder head bolt to the rear
of the A/C compressor. That silly bracket that makes it impossible to change the spark plugs was put on there by a moron engineer at GM , who if he had bothered to run the numbers,
would have discovered that King Kong couldn't tear that compressor loose with the other brackets holding it in place. If you route the wires like I told you with no tube and do away
with that stupid bracket, you will find it takes 30 seconds to remove the starter or install it. With that setup, all you will need to do is remove the starter bolts, pull the starter straight
forward till the starter nose clears the flywheel cover, then tilt the rear of the starter down and pull it out.

[GPMESQ]

Originally Posted by U47

The way I look at it is some engineer who knows more that me about the stress levels on that heavy thing out there put the bracket out there for a reason.

I need to get the starter bolt with the long stud...I broke the stud...any idea where I could get that?

On the other hand the bracket is a major pain...it was to get off...without the stud it is useless...

[U47]

Originally Posted by GPMESQ

I need to get the starter bolt with the long stud...I broke the stud...any idea where I could get that?

On the other hand the bracket is a major pain...it was to get off...without the stud it is useless...

You know I must make a correction here. We are actually referring to a bolt that has threads on both it's ends. The bolt head has threads in one direction that sticks out and is fastened to that bracket, and on the other side of the end of the starter end plate it continues about six inches and holds the end plate to the starter motor case or body. I could buy some stock and make the bolt in my machine shop, but that's not going to help you out. So what I would do is find a starter/generator shop in your area and see if they have any old carcasses lying around that you can take parts off of.
BTW when you used my quote in your reply I gave two reasons for the bracket, and after putting so many of those things in, I think the latter is the reason the bracket is there: to aid in the installation.
Think about this. Having worked in the automotive field all of my life and now retired. Most of my employment was in the engineering department of a major auto manufacturer. In engineering we are encouraged and even given incentives for reducing cost to help profit margins. A silly bracket times thousands of cars adds up big bucks especially over a ten year + period which is about how long that starter was in production. If that bracket-brace were eliminated think how much savings would that be. Cost cutters remove far less significant items that only cost penny's compared to that bracket.
It's there for a reason.

[GPMESQ]

Originally Posted by U47

We are actually referring to a bolt that has threads on both it's ends. The bolt head has threads in one direction that sticks out and is fastened to that bracket, and on the other side of the end of the starter end plate it continues about six inches and holds the end plate to the starter motor case or body...
BTW when you used my quote in your reply I gave two reasons for the bracket, and after putting so many of those things in, I think the latter is the reason the bracket is there: to aid in the installation.

Yes, that is the bolt I am talking about and finding a shop that rebuilds is probably going to be my only option...have to break out my Hemmings...

And you are correct, to have something to hang the starter on during install/removal would be very helpful...

[gtohurstjudge]

Chevrolet engineers would beg to differ with you since they never
used a front bracket on their starters. 40 years......count em.....FORTY YEARS...
without a bracket and my starter is still there. During what century do you think that
bracket will have kept my starter from falling off? As a side note, I've been working on
cars since 1968 and in the car repair business since 1974 and 99.9 percent of Pontiac
v-8's I get in the shop don't have that silly bracket installed. They were all tossed decades
ago. Also, if you buy a new Delco Starter for a Pontiac v-8, guess what? there is no stud
on the starter for the bracket to attach to. That has been the case for decades now.
GM obviously knows it was a dumb idea. I have a theory that the same brilliant engineer that gave us
the front starter bracket devised the ridiculous routing of wires to the starter on the non ram air cars
that caused the car to burst into flames when it was 4 years old.

[GPMESQ]

Originally Posted by gtohurstjudge

Chevrolet engineers would beg to differ with you since they never used a front bracket on their starters...As a side note, I've been working on
cars since 1968 and in the car repair business since 1974 and 99.9 percent of Pontiac
v-8's I get in the shop don't have that silly bracket installed.

And true...I have more experience with Chevrolets and had never seen one of these brackets before this car. I am sure no one ever put them back after the first starter change. The starter is not going anywhere if I do not put it back...

[U47]

Originally Posted by gtohurstjudge

Chevrolet engineers would beg to differ with you since they never
used a front bracket on their starters. 40 years......count em.....FORTY YEARS...
without a bracket and my starter is still there. During what century do you think that
bracket will have kept my starter from falling off? As a side note, I've been working on
cars since 1968 and in the car repair business since 1974 and 99.9 percent of Pontiac
v-8's I get in the shop don't have that silly bracket installed. They were all tossed decades
ago. Also, if you buy a new Delco Starter for a Pontiac v-8, guess what? there is no stud
on the starter for the bracket to attach to. That has been the case for decades now.
GM obviously knows it was a dumb idea. I have a theory that the same brilliant engineer that gave us
the front starter bracket devised the ridiculous routing of wires to the starter on the non ram air cars
that caused the car to burst into flames when it was 4 years old.

Please don't talk about Chevrolet, The first small blocks didn't even come with oil filters, they continued to use the dangerous X frame through 1964, and they used front steering on the big cars all through that same era. A Chevrolet wouldn't even be near to being safe in a front end collision until 1967 much less a center punch. Who in their right mind would put a power steering pump on the back of a generator.
Why don't they put the long bolt in new replacement starters? Probably because so many of you threw the bracket away.

[GPMESQ]

Originally Posted by U47

Please don't talk about Chevrolet, The first small blocks didn't even come with oil filters, they continued to use the dangerous X frame through 1964, and they used front steering on the big cars all through that same era. A Chevrolet wouldn't even be near to being safe in a front end collision until 1967 much less a center punch. Who in their right mind would put a power steering pump on the back of a generator.
Why don't they put the long bolt in new replacement starters? Probably because so many of you threw the bracket away.

Deep breaths...I believe you both have successfully debated the pros and cons concerning the use of the rear starter support bracket. But you are missing the point of the thread...

I STILL CANT GET MY STARTER DOWN!

[GPMESQ]

...about epay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/190685687982...S:3160&vxp=mtr

It puts a lot of stuff at your fingertips...

[gtohurstjudge]

There's going to be a huge market for those bolts......better stock up
now while you can still get them! The first time I had to pull the starter off my GTO was in 1973. It took all day, and honestly if I hadn't been able to come up with a better way
of installing the starter and routing the wires to it, I probably would have gotten rid of the
car over that problem it was such a pain in the ass. With the factory setup you can pull
a starter off a 69 SS396 Chevelle in about 15 seconds. The money Pontiac spent on that bolt and bracket and heat tube would have been a lot better spent putting a real metal
hinge on the glovebox door or putting a place on the console to stow the seat belts. I
love my GTO but honestly it has the most engineering deficiencies of any car I have ever owned, and I've owned a lot of cars.The
worst offenders that a three year old could have designed better:
Endura bumper with endless paint cracks
console door
glove box door
hood release
hood that buckles in the middle
dash cluster that requires removing the whole dash to service
Judge wing that bolts only to the outer skin of the decklid, pulling the skin away from the lower framework
tail light bezels that corrode horribly in three years of daily use
horrible panel gaps from the factory
6 inch wide wheels on a muscle car......really?
a muscle car with standard manual drum brakes.....really?
Endless rear main seal leaks
Ridiculous rear end that requires pressing the rear wheel bearings on the axles
No place to stow the seat belt buckles when not being used
starter mounting and wire routing
studs on the A/C box with nuts you can't get to when they could have been eliminated with no issue whatsoever.
Foam caulk in the body panels that caused rust outs when three years old even in Texas where they don't salt the roads
An aluminum timing gear with plastic teeth.....really?
A fan shroud that requires removing the whole radiator to remove

[Sirrotica]

To the original poster: Unless the car had previous frame damage or has headers it should come out fine. Take the left motor mount bolt out and jack the left side of the engine up to get it out if you have to. I've removed probably 50 starters in A body cars from 68 to 72 as well at B and F bodies and haven't run into the problem your dealing with, without being there I can only guess what the problem is.

About the rear starter support and not replacing it. The engines were high compression in 1964 when Pontiac started using the block mount starter. There are cases in chevys and Pontiacs that the inner starter bolt shears off. Few chevys use high torque starters and almost all Pontiacs do, so it's apples and oranges as to why Pontiac engineers used the starter bracket when chevy didn't.

Also I have seen and heard of all families of GM engines with block mount starters actually breaking the block in the starter mount area because the rear starter support was left off. The chances of it breaking a bolt off or a chunk of cast iron out of the block is remote, it does happen occasionally though.