[RocktimusPryme]

I got to the track for the first time since I’ve installed the Terminator X and Hyperspark setup.

The results were very promising. It was hot, and humid. I’ve done no real tuning other than the ECU self learn. Car was also hot on the best runs. 200ish degrees. It was about to rain so everyone was scrambling.

It still went 3mph and 3 tenths faster than I ever have at this track with the carb and HEI. And there is more in it. My best 60 today was a 1.89 I think. It’s been 1.7x before.

I went bracket racing, which I’ve never actually done. Dialed in at 8.1 which is what my test pass was and made sense given what I knew my car ran at that track.

Got in a double breakout race. Broke out worse. Bought back in. Lowered my time to 7.90 and broke out again. Sucks to lose, but I got good video of me reeling in the 2nd guy and it’s fun to go fast.

Mixed results on the light.

[PAUL K]

Good job! Thanks for sharing.

[gtokid1968]

What track were you at?

[firechicken]

You must have been on the brakes hard on that 7.89 pass @ 5.7 mph

[scott70]

92.5 mph should be about a 7.4 with good traction and about a mid 1.6 60ft in a heavyish street car.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by scott70

92.5 mph should be about a 7.4 with good traction and about a mid 1.6 60ft in a heavyish street car.

It’s probably 3300 at a guess.

The track is Speeds New Hope. Fun little independent track about 30 miles from me.

I gotta dig up my old best at Indy which was a 12.2 with I think 7.80. Great weather. Cool engine. One of the best tracks in the world.

This was definitely an improvement on that considering conditions and location. I was really happy.

The weak link in the setup is the 1310 rear u joint. It makes me afraid to really let it go since I drive my car to the track. I don’t have a trailer.

I also think I might have had too much air in the drag radials. I had them at like 17psi. I feel like I’ve had lower 60’ times with more like 15psi.

I REALLY want to be able to say I have an 11 second car. I thought I was going to need to change to more gear than the 3.08s or go with a bigger cam to get there. But now I feel like I might be able to get there easily with what I have.

[RocktimusPryme]

I dug up my previous best.

Based on the 1/8 mile MPH improvement, in conditions that were worse in every possible way I think I might drive to the big track in the fall and try to make an 11.90.

[Cliff R]

My old and stupid ars doesn't see 3 tenths and 3mph from a carb and distributor swap, unless I missed something someplace?.......And yes I saw where you mentioned it was at that track but picking up 3mph and .3 is HUGE in this game.

The race is made on the starting line and nothing good happens until you stick the car really hard even when you have made changes and making more power someplace.

Sticking the car really hard with big power also finds ALL the weak spots behind the engine. Drag radials have a pretty good learning curve associated with them. They require a LOT more heat than "cheater slicks" or bias ply slicks with a couple of grooves cut in them.

Drag radials also wear out quickly as a result of having to "cook" them some to find good traction. I still like the stability they provide on the top end of the track compared to bias ply DOT's with abotu 12psi in them which feels like having a skate board under your backside at the top end of the track.

To get solidly into the 11's you'll need to be well into the 1.6's for 60' times and getting thru the 1/8th mile around 7.70-7.80 seconds. At 3300lbs that shouldn't take much more than about 470-480hp......

[Cliff R]

My old and stupid ars doesn't see 3 tenths and 3mph from a carb and distributor swap, unless I missed something someplace?.......And yes I saw where you mentioned it was at that track but picking up 3mph and .3 is HUGE in this game.

The race is made on the starting line and nothing good happens until you stick the car really hard even when you have made changes and making more power someplace.

Sticking the car really hard with big power also finds ALL the weak spots behind the engine. Drag radials have a pretty good learning curve associated with them. They require a LOT more heat than "cheater slicks" or bias ply slicks with a couple of grooves cut in them.

Drag radials also wear out quickly as a result of having to "cook" them some to find good traction. I still like the stability they provide on the top end of the track compared to bias ply DOT's with abotu 12psi in them which feels like having a skate board under your backside at the top end of the track.

To get solidly into the 11's you'll need to be well into the 1.6's for 60' times and getting thru the 1/8th mile around 7.70-7.80 seconds. At 3300lbs that shouldn't take much more than about 470-480hp......

[RocktimusPryme]

One thing I didn’t mention that might be worth a tenth. I am down 100 lbs myself. So I don’t know how much that’s worth but it’s worth something I’m sure.

I agree that just the FI swap shouldn’t be worth as much as I got. I was hoping for 90.xx mph. And got 92.5. So I was very happy. The throttle body is bigger than the 800 cfm q jet FWIW. I suspect the electronically controller hyperspark distributor rather than a pretty much out of the box small cap HEI is worth more than the FI in this case

I will say from the moment I installed the terminator the throttle felt snappier. But that’s a feeling, not a scientific test so we all know how that goes.

The only other thing different is the car is lower. 1.75 in the front and 1 inch in the back. I. Was actually concerned the lowering blocks in the back would lead to wheel hop but they didn’t seem to.

[grandam1979]

.2 difference could come just from the weather on different days

[tininjun68]

Good to hear you had a good time bracket racing! Usually the best way to get at least a couple time shots plus round one of eliminations at your local track.

No expert here but done my share of bracket racing. I've gone 10.50's with a 3000lb-ish '68 Firebird (no interior, lexan instead of glass/other lightweight stuff.
With 580hp, I would estimate you'd be in the low 11's or better without much issue. What rear gear is in there now and how much does the car weigh with you in it?

Bottom Line: I think you're a rear gear ratio change away from way quicker results.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by tininjun68

Bottom Line: I think you're a rear gear ratio change away from way quicker results.

That I agree with. But now I think I can be 11.9x with what I have based on my latest results.

I have a Nova 8.5 with 30 spline moser axles and 3.08s.

I have a 43 MB I need to sell. Plan is to use the money to buy a gear vendors setup and switch to 3.42s or 3.73s.


I also agree weather can move the number but in this case the weather should have made me worse. It was like 88 degrees and about to rain. My previous best was in the low 60s dry with a tail wind.

Also to be clear my drag radials are the Mickey Thompson SS flavor. So the closest to a street tire you can get.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

My old and stupid ars doesn't see 3 tenths and 3mph from a carb and distributor swap, unless I missed something someplace?.......And yes I saw where you mentioned it was at that track but picking up 3mph and .3 is HUGE in this game.

The race is made on the starting line and nothing good happens until you stick the car really hard even when you have made changes and making more power someplace.

Sticking the car really hard with big power also finds ALL the weak spots behind the engine. Drag radials have a pretty good learning curve associated with them. They require a LOT more heat than "cheater slicks" or bias ply slicks with a couple of grooves cut in them.

Drag radials also wear out quickly as a result of having to "cook" them some to find good traction. I still like the stability they provide on the top end of the track compared to bias ply DOT's with abotu 12psi in them which feels like having a skate board under your backside at the top end of the track.

To get solidly into the 11's you'll need to be well into the 1.6's for 60' times and getting thru the 1/8th mile around 7.70-7.80 seconds. At 3300lbs that shouldn't take much more than about 470-480hp......

When I switched to radials I was told to give them one good burnout to start the day and the rest of the runs just knock the rocks off. Which I did, just a quick little spin to knock off the rocks and any water left in the box from the last guy.
It worked fine, 1.45 60 foots. I have bias tires back on the car because that was all I could get when I ordered them last year.
I plan on going back to them, MT Pro Bracket Radials, after I wear these out. I too liked the stability on the big end after getting off the gas on the big end.

[Formulas]

Efectiveness of new parts has a fair amount to do with how well the old parts were doing their job to start with..

Some carbs can run pretty crappy and not be real obvious esp. when your engine is modified a fair amount over stock

[RocktimusPryme]

To be fair the carb ran at 12.5 to 1 all the way down the track. I did have to fight the fuel system to get it to go down the track with the single needle/seat Q jet. But that carb was built for my engine and always ran very well.

I think the tighter control of the hyperspark was probably more than the carb. My old distributor(s) was fine, but it wasn't curved for me or anything.

Now the one thing I will say about the carb is I was never quite sure that I had all 100% of the throttle. I know it was close, but if I found out I only had 95% it wouldn't shock me.

[Cliff R]

The later model Q-jets are 850 cfm, not 800 as they are dubbed on every Forum you will visit where folks are talking about them. They only need a tiny bit shaved off the stop on the secondary air flap shaft as shown in my book. Edelbrock already did it for you with the 1910 carburetors. They also have several minor flaws in them that require correcting for use on really fast cars, and none of the folks building them are doing them from what I've seen.

On the dyno or at the track nothing will outrun the later Q-jets in the 850cfm range. I've back to back dyno and drag strip tested my 1977 17057274 Pontiac carb against everything out there and nothing makes more power or quicker ET's. I doubt if any of these electric carbs would outrun it either, at least to near 600hp where my last engine was at. The only downside to the Q-jet is feeding it with a garden hose at those power levels and using a high flow N/S assembly. The tiny N/S assemblies everyone is using in their builds aren't going to cut it much past 400hp or so, and why many fall short trying to use them on engine making big power in fast cars.

In any case I like to see "back to back" testing, and testing parts which have been tuned exactly for and the best at what they are sitting on. Anything less just doesn't cut it.....IMHO

Even so I keep hearing or seeing where folks install electric carburetors or TB's and claim 50hp increases just taking the car out for a full throttle blast on a deserted side street close to their house. I've seen a few dyno videos on Youtube where they pick up a couple of HP, which should never happen no matter what you are testing provided it has adequate CFM and tuned for what it was being used on. I only say this because when I test parts I make sure to spend enough time with each one to make sure they are up to par for what we are doing with them. I've carried as many as 8 carburetors to private track rentals and tested them all day long, even on several different cars and it is RARE if we see more than about a tenth or so and 2mph on top end between all of them. In most cases we typically see a few hundrends of a second and less .than .5 mph.

The only exceptions to date that I can think of were with the Edelbrock carbs. The AFB clones were HOPELESS and difficult to make full passes on because they "puked" all over themselves on the starting line. The AVS versions faired better, but still slower everyplace on the run and down 2mph or so on top end on every car we put them on. Everything else, the HP950's, 4781-2 Holley 850DP carb, custom built Holley clones, etc all run about the same everyplace.

Not trying to get off topic here but it appears difficult if not near impossible to actually do any back to back testing with these new TB electric systems do to the labor/time involved at the track to swap them back and forth. It will still make for good reading if someone put the effort in.

You'll notice that I refrain from calling them "fuel injection" Fuel injection (and please don't tell anyone but I a good bit of experience with it) is welding 8 bungs into a single plane intake, installing 8 injectors, a base MAP that's very close for what we are doing, and data logging/accepting the changes plus filling in some of the blanks with custom input until it is FLAWLESS at every level. I consider the "dry" intake systems superior to the wetflow TB units they are pushing simply because when I'm done custom tuning a carb and distributor about the only difference will be that you have to "pat" the throttle once with the carb on a cold start vs just reaching in and turning the key with the TB system.......FWIW.......

[gtokid1968]

As always Thanks for your thoughts Cliff!
And the OP for going to fast!

[RocktimusPryme]

I believe I stated that I felt the Hyperspark had more to do with my improvement than the injection did. I wasnt trying to start a manhood measuring contest between carbs and EFI. I was just happy I picked up some time over my previous bests at the same track. I went in fully expecting basically identical numbers, so I was surprised when it went faster.

I have nothing bad to say about my Q jet, other than it was pain to get enough fuel to it. Once I switched to an intank fuel pump it was fine. Ive seen all the same dyno comparisons that show no real gain. The one thing I would say is that I do think its possible that the Terminator doing math for you might be better at compensating for the environment than a carb is. So it might before better under less than ideal circumstances like I had on Saturday.

The throttle body is slightly taller, so maybe there is a touch more venturi effect going down the holes.

[scott70]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

I believe I stated that I felt the Hyperspark had more to do with my improvement than the injection did. I wasnt trying to start a manhood measuring contest between carbs and EFI. I was just happy I picked up some time over my previous bests at the same track. I went in fully expecting basically identical numbers, so I was surprised when it went faster.

I have nothing bad to say about my Q jet, other than it was pain to get enough fuel to it. Once I switched to an intank fuel pump it was fine. Ive seen all the same dyno comparisons that show no real gain. The one thing I would say is that I do think its possible that the Terminator doing math for you might be better at compensating for the environment than a carb is. So it might before better under less than ideal circumstances like I had on Saturday.

The throttle body is slightly taller, so maybe there is a touch more venturi effect going down the holes.

Well obviously someting wasnt quite happy with the other setup to gain 3 mph in the 1/8th.,,thats quite a improvement. The 92+ mph(HP) in the 1/8th definitely puts you in the 11.5- 11.9 range 1/4(115 mph or so). Improve the 60ft and youll see a nice improvement in ET and a slight improvement in MPH..