[grivera]

Cross-posted in Street section

Looking at these below but no spacers included. I’ve read elsewhere the tubular a-arms typically drop the ride-height 1-2” and I only need a 1” drop. Anyone with a first-gen (69) Firebird to comment and where would one obtain the spacers?

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e1105...=loc,osub=osub

my car has aluminum heads, Long branch manifolds and will get aftermarket AC in next year or two

[JLMounce]

The link provided just takes me to a generic ebay page.

I'm assuming these arms are the global west copies that are sold at several places. Ebay, summit, jegs etc.?

I have a pair on my wife's chevelle and while overall they work decently, I wouldn't spend money on them again. They're noisy as hell and have a decent amount of slop in them. The actual arms are fine, it's the bushings, ball joints and attached hardware that sucks. You really want to replace all of that. Unless you've got a press, by the time you buy new parts and have them installed, you could have purchased better arms to begin with.

Some arms drop the car with a lowered pocket, some arms do not. You have to be careful about what you're reading etc.

The arms from summit that I purchased for my wife's chevelle did come with spacers to tailor the ride height where you want it. You may be able to acquire those spacers, or spacers from global west as well.

Unless you're replacing rotted and potentially unsafe factory parts, I don't know that I can honestly recommend the ebay control arms having used them for about a year and a half now. What the goal with swapping control arms?

[grivera]

Thanks Jason. Yes- they are the Global West copies.

All the rubber in my front suspension is shot so thought I would do the control arms in the process but swap out the ball joints for pro forge or moof rubber pieces - didn’t realize the bushings in the ebay armes were crap too?

I already have a 1” Addco anti- sway bar kit on shelf to install in process. Wouldn’t mind a 1” drop in process.

I planned to buy a complete front end kit to do all the parts- tie rod ends, collars, idle arm, coil springs, etc. Any recommendations there?

Will also do the steering gear but haven’t decided on which one to buy. Finding a WS6 box is not easy.

[vertigto]

You might want to look into these...Delrin and tall ball joints made in the USA and a bit less expensive than others...

https://www.bmrsuspension.com/?page=...099&superpro=0

...and maybe this for the steering box.

https://www.borgeson.com/xcart/produ...productid=1792

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by grivera

Thanks Jason. Yes- they are the Global West copies.

All the rubber in my front suspension is shot so thought I would do the control arms in the process but swap out the ball joints for pro forge or moof rubber pieces - didn’t realize the bushings in the ebay armes were crap too?

I already have a 1” Addco anti- sway bar kit on shelf to install in process. Wouldn’t mind a 1” drop in process.

I planned to buy a complete front end kit to do all the parts- tie rod ends, collars, idle arm, coil springs, etc. Any recommendations there?

Will also do the steering gear but haven’t decided on which one to buy. Finding a WS6 box is not easy.

For a street car, where I wanted a bit lower stance, with some improved agility and grip and keeping budget in mind, this is the approach I would take.

Rebuild factory control arms with high durometer rubber bushings. Moog lower control arm ball join and a pro-forged .5" tall upper ball joint.

Lowering coil spring in the front and lowering leaf in the rear to suit. If yoru suspension is currently in a bad way, you might consider a 2" drop spring package. Your car is probably sagging already, going to a 1" drop spring may actually raise the vehicle.

DSE, Global West, Hotchkis, SPC, Eibach, BMR. These are all good brands. If you want a bit of a rake, keep the drop leafs the same as the fronts. If you want to level the car a bit, you want half an inch to an inch more lowering in the rear. If you need 3" in the rear, go with a 2" lowering leaf and get the rest of the drop through blocks. 3" lowering leaf is de-arched too much and will degrade ride quality.

1" solid or 1.25" hollow front bar. No rear bar is needed, but can be helpful to rotate the car faster if you're doing auto-x.

Replace the body bushings with factory replacement or poly/solid bushings while you're at it.

Complete steering rebuild from the gear to the outer tie-rods.

Add a set of Bilstein HD's or Koni Classic shocks.

New alignment with more modern settings.

-1* camber
+3* caster
0-1/16" toe in

That type of setup is going to get the car driving and tracking well, without destroying the ride quality or re-engineering the wheel so to speak.

Will it burn down the competition in your local CAM-T auto-x session? No. Will it feel more agile, still ride nice and give you trouble-free driving? Yes.

[grivera]

What is the advantage of tall ball joints?

[grivera]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

For a street car, where I wanted a bit lower stance, with some improved agility and grip and keeping budget in mind, this is the approach I would take.

Rebuild factory control arms with high durometer rubber bushings. Moog lower control arm ball join and a pro-forged .5" tall upper ball joint.

Lowering coil spring in the front and lowering leaf in the rear to suit. If yoru suspension is currently in a bad way, you might consider a 2" drop spring package. Your car is probably sagging already, going to a 1" drop spring may actually raise the vehicle.

DSE, Global West, Hotchkis, SPC, Eibach, BMR. These are all good brands. If you want a bit of a rake, keep the drop leafs the same as the fronts. If you want to level the car a bit, you want half an inch to an inch more lowering in the rear. If you need 3" in the rear, go with a 2" lowering leaf and get the rest of the drop through blocks. 3" lowering leaf is de-arched too much and will degrade ride quality.

1" solid or 1.25" hollow front bar. No rear bar is needed, but can be helpful to rotate the car faster if you're doing auto-x.

Replace the body bushings with factory replacement or poly/solid bushings while you're at it.

Complete steering rebuild from the gear to the outer tie-rods.

Add a set of Bilstein HD's or Koni Classic shocks.

New alignment with more modern settings.

-1* camber
+3* caster
0-1/16" toe in

That type of setup is going to get the car driving and tracking well, without destroying the ride quality or re-engineering the wheel so to speak.

Will it burn down the competition in your local CAM-T auto-x session? No. Will it feel more agile, still ride nice and give you trouble-free driving? Yes.

Thanks for the detailed post! The front sits high now and the rear has replacement leaf springs with about 2500 miles on them - they are old though like from 2009. Pic of stance attached

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by grivera

What is the advantage of tall ball joints?

The .5" tall ball joint starts to correct the camber curve of the factory suspension.

In stock form, as the front suspension goes into bump the camber curve pushes positive. When you pitch the car into a corner and the suspension loads in bump, the tire that is providing all of the grip is being leaned outward which reduces contact patch and reduces grip.

The tall ball joint is effectively increasing the height of the steering knuckle which changes the relationship of how the upper control arm moves, compared to the lower control arm. The result is that instead of the camber curve going positive, it will tend to stay about neutral. Ideally you want the curve to go negative in bump, which requires even more steering knuckle height.

There are .9" tall ball joints available that help further and actually do create a negative camber gain curve. However, they change how the control arms articulate enough that it's possible to run into bind where you've reached the limit of the ball joint's travel. I don't recommend them on factory control arms unless you're willing to take the time to cycle the suspension through it's full range of compression and droop to verify that you're not going to run into that situation.

Driving down the road in a typical fashion, you'll never know they are there, until you pitch the car into a corner with some zest only to discover you've magically got a bit more grip.

[grivera]

Wow- I have lots to learn.

[JLMounce]

Based on your stance, I would leave the rear alone and go with a 2" drop spring in the front. Because you'd be increasing spring rate in the front, but not the rear, I would lean a bit more heavily to adding a rear sway bar, you'll want that added wheel rate.

Another option would be to cut your stock springs. Doing so will drop the car and also slightly increase the spring rate up front, but not as much as what you'd see with aftermarket springs. If you go this route it's somewhat trial and error. You want to cut 1 coil at a time, from the bottom of the spring. It needs to be cut exactly 180 degrees from the pigtail on the bottom. On the first gen cars, the spring clocks in the upper spring perch of the sub-frame, NOT in the lower control arm.

On the driver's side there is an inspection hole in the subframe on the front-end side of the subframe. On the passenger side the inspection hole is on the rear-end side of the subframe. Stick a small punch through those holes and butt the top pigtail up against them. Failing to clock the springs this way can result in irregularities in how the car sits. Too tall, lean to one side etc.

In fact, thinking on it currently, with the way your car sits, it would not surprise me if the springs could simply use clocking correctly. Because the upper spring perch is wound to accept a pigtail, unlike a late A-body that has a flat perch, having the springs clocked improperly may be why it's sitting so high in the first place.

Depending on what your budget vs skill and time looks like, it might be worth a saturday afternoon to try and reclock those springs and see if the front end comes down a bit.

By nature the birds tend to sit a bit higher in the front than the rear as designed. If you're after the factory appearance, you may be able to get by with just correct installation and keeping your factory springs.

Still do the rest though as mentioned. It won't detract from the stock appearance, but still provide benefits to driving feel and performance.

[grivera]

Had no idea of that inspection hole. I plan to do front springs as well. The BMR a-arms are tempting but don’t indicate the brand of ball joints. I may go with them. My plan is to replace the full front suspension including the a-arms, 4 shocks, steering box. Cry once!

Need to shop the tie rod ends, idle arm, center-link, any other wear items?

I like the Borgeson steering box Vertigto referenced

[JLMounce]

I hear good things about bmr. I’d call them and talk to them about your needs.

If you’re into spending some funds I really think the ridetech street grip system is probably the best system out there currently for a stock based performance, ride and handling solution. You utilize the factory arms still but that doesn’t become a big issue until you start auto-x and need the high positive caster rates that help with grip in lower speed higher turning angle driving.

[grivera]

With aluminum heads and eventually aftermarket AC, should I choose non- AC coil springs?

[JLMounce]

I have “big block” hotchkis springs in my 69. The spring rates are the same but the big block springs have a bit more free length to make up for the extra weight.

You’ve still got manifolds in there so even with aluminum heads, with ac going in I’d tend to run the big block rated springs if there’s an option.

[grivera]

How about constant rate versus variable rate springs?

[JLMounce]

I prefer constant rate springs since they are more predictable. I've had a vehicle with progressive rate springs in it before and I never felt like I knew when the increased spring rate was gonna come in.

If you're not doing performance driving, I think the idea has merit to have a softer ride that gets firmer when you need it. In practice it can do some weird things to the balance and dynamic of the car at or near the limit. Bit if you're not one to push that limit you could try them.

[Tim john]

I installed DSE upper and lower control arms in our 69 Firebird along with DSE 2" lowering springs front and rear. All aluminum engine, Vintage Air A/C, TKO-600 5 speed. Very pleased with the look and handling. Koni /DSE tuned front shocks, JRI / DSE tuned rear shocks.

Tim john---

[grivera]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

I have “big block” hotchkis springs in my 69. The spring rates are the same but the big block springs have a bit more free length to make up for the extra weight.

You’ve still got manifolds in there so even with aluminum heads, with ac going in I’d tend to run the big block rated springs if there’s an option.

Any suggestions of which 2" lowering springs to buy? I want black (BMR sells red)

Ever heard of POL springs - made in US?

[JLMounce]

Never heard of POL springs. I believe SPC springs are going to be black.

I would not really advise choosing the spring based on color though. You really have to look for the springs to see them when the car is on the ground and you may end up with a spring you don't want for your combination simply because it was the right color.

Choose the right spring, if you really need to, paint it to get the color you want it to show.

[grivera]

Thanks- shopping for spacers is overwhelming. I’m looking for a 1 inch spacer to put in spring cup in case the 2” drop is too much. BMR said I could use a coil spring isolator to get a little height but they don’t sell them. How do these look?

https://www.amazon.com/Energy-Suspen.../dp/B000CNB56S

Also, do the tubular control arms typically need these isolators or are they optional?

Makes me wonder if I have to add them top and bottom it will affect height significantly.