Tell Bob Lutz what you think of the GTO - Page 19 - PY Online Forums

rabon008 · #**361** 05-16-2005, 12:01 PM

Didn't realize it was an auto. Considering that, I'd say its not bad.

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**362** 05-19-2005, 12:13 AM

Actually; the VIN is ALL that matters. Like it or not, my GTO is as much a Pontiac as yours is. And I don't have to prove it to you by meeting your subjective criteria.

keep thinking that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">i wouldnt be bragging about a car breaking track records that is a australlian body with a chevy motor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny, I don't hear you bragging about your car at all..... just tearing down mine.

because there is always somethign better. why do i have to brag about my car ?

How about answering my earlier question:
"Why do you go to so much trouble to tell us you don't like the car? Do you do this in real-life? Stopping people in the parking lot of the grocery store to tell them how much you hate their car and why it's not "worthy" of your approval?"

actually i do. but its more like "you should get a real pontiac"

I won't hold my breath for an answer either.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**363** 05-19-2005, 12:48 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tripower455

I munched a cam on break in with my real Pontiac, but never did so on either of the 2 LS-1s I've owned.Therefore, using your logic, LS-1s, SBC derived or not, are superior engines to traditional Pontiacs (but still not as good as the SBC LT-1), which I guess are also Chevies, since they use pushrods, have 2 valves per cylinder and are V-8s. The distributor caps are even interchangeable betwen a Chebbie and Pontiac, so obviously, they are the same......

you think too hard. so does that mean if i can swap the oil pan plug its the same ?
the LS1 is a good example of what you can do with technology. take any real pontiac engine and use todays technology on it and it would be faster then the LS1/LT1 in my mind. and both the LT1/LS1 are good engines in my opinion i think the LT1 is more durable. oh about the LS1 being a chevy engine lets do a little math. LS1s came out in 98 so if its not a chevy motor how could chevy have a 50th anniversary (in 03,04,05 or whatever year it was) if the LS1 isnt a chevy motor ? what other sbc (350) is made today and put in a car from the factory? exactially. how you gonna explain that? math dont lie.

Did you get into the 15's with your '69 yet?

i think you ment 12's insted of 15's. hows your project comming along? honestly i havent got to the track since i owned it. i explained this several times before i have 6x heads on the 428 (were on there when i bought it) which is really slowing it down so i got a set of 16 heads and had them worked over and since id like to keep it semi streetable and for piece of mind (in case i want to add a safety button) i want a good set of pistons/rods. plus i need a pretty good dish to make it 8.5/9:1 cr so i can run pump gas. all the parts i have are still in the boxes sitting around waiting to get put on. but now its in the body shop. i found a set of doors and need to get new rockers and a trunk floor. im also looking for a few other smaller things to make it stand out that much more. the 1/4's are starting to bubble from the body line that runs from the back tire to the bumper in the size of a quarter in 2 or 3 spots on each side but the inner/outer fender wells look good. i want to get a new gas tank with a sump and braded line to help with fuel issues. if it dont get 12's then i may as well buy a chevy so i can save money on parts. ive seen a very simmilar 428 in a book that runs 11.0X's. i dont see how you guys afford this stuff.

Merdin · #**364** 05-19-2005, 06:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
actually i do. but its more like "you should get a real pontiac"
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah.... right.

rabon008 · #**365** 05-19-2005, 01:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tripower455

...which I guess are also Chevies, since they use pushrods, have 2 valves per cylinder and are V-8s. The distributor caps are even interchangeable betwen a Chebbie and Pontiac, so obviously, they are the same......

[/Qoute]

you think too hard. so does that mean if i can swap the oil pan plug its the same ?
the LS1 is a good example of what you can do with technology. take any real pontiac engine and use todays technology on it and it would be faster then the LS1/LT1 in my mind </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tripower can correct me here but I believe he was using your logic facetiously against you. In other words, neither having pushrods, nor the 2 valves, nor an oil pan plug makes a V8 a "Chevy". A great many V8s have those things. However, if I design a new V8 and the parts interchange with a SBC, then I have obviously based my design on the SBC. However, if I design a new V8 and 99.9% of my parts are NOT interchangeable with the SBC then I must have based the design of those parts on something else. It is my contention that GM based the LS1 design on experienced gained from almost all divisions of GM. The bore spacing came from Chevy (there's not much doubt about that). The sealing systems design possibly came from Cadillac experience. The aluminum block and its casting method came from various good and bad attempts over the years beginning with Pontiac in the 50s. The valve design and angles are possibly based on old Buick designs. This list goes on and on. The LS1/2 is GM at its best.

When you say you'd like to see what all the experience would do if applied to the Pontiacs of old, you aren't far from the LS1.

David Jones · #**366** 05-20-2005, 04:23 AM

You've studied these items yourself or read this somewhere?

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**367** 05-20-2005, 12:33 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rabon:

you (i think it was you) asked what does a LS1 share with a sbc. i gave the answer being a smart a**. i think theyre playing both sides of the fence. how can they claim the sbc is 50 years old if the LS1 is NOT a chevy ?

Tripower455 · #**368** 05-20-2005, 04:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
you think too hard. so does that mean if i can swap the oil pan plug its the same ?
the LS1 is a good example of what you can do with technology. take any real pontiac engine and use todays technology on it and it would be faster then the LS1/LT1 in my mind. and both the LT1/LS1 are good engines in my opinion i think the LT1 is more durable. oh about the LS1 being a chevy engine lets do a little math. LS1s came out in 98 so if its not a chevy motor how could chevy have a 50th anniversary (in 03,04,05 or whatever year it was) if the LS1 isnt a chevy motor ? what other sbc (350) is made today and put in a car from the factory? exactially. how you gonna explain that? math dont lie. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rabon answered that one......

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">i think you ment 12's insted of 15's. hows your project comming along? honestly i havent got to the track since i owned it. i explained this several times before i have 6x heads on the 428 (were on there when i bought it) which is really slowing it down so i got a set of 16 heads and had them worked over and since id like to keep it semi streetable and for piece of mind (in case i want to add a safety button) i want a good set of pistons/rods. plus i need a pretty good dish to make it 8.5/9:1 cr so i can run pump gas. all the parts i have are still in the boxes sitting around waiting to get put on. but now its in the body shop. i found a set of doors and need to get new rockers and a trunk floor. im also looking for a few other smaller things to make it stand out that much more. the 1/4's are starting to bubble from the body line that runs from the back tire to the bumper in the size of a quarter in 2 or 3 spots on each side but the inner/outer fender wells look good. i want to get a new gas tank with a sump and braded line to help with fuel issues. if it dont get 12's then i may as well buy a chevy so i can save money on parts. ive seen a very simmilar 428 in a book that runs 11.0X's. i dont see how you guys afford this stuff. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess that means no........

Might as well start shopping for that Chevy....12's are a bit on the optimistic side (but possible) the way your setup sits now. BTW, if you want 8.5-9.1 or so, you are probably pretty close with the 6xs on the 428. A .030" mill would get you close enough You will be well over 10:1 with the 16's........

Unless you just want it to appear like a numbers matching 428 (nothing wrong with that, btw

), you are trying to get what you want backwards..... Why put high compression heads on the engine and then put dished pistons to get the CR back where you already are with the 6xs? The 16's (stock) won't flow appreciably better in your app than the 6Xs (stock), and the 6xs can certainly be ported to run with the best of them.

Ahh, why even mess with that old school technology? You should just put a SBC in there and be done with it!

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**369** 05-20-2005, 07:30 PM

about the LS1 being a chevy engine lets do a little math. LS1s came out in 98 so if its not a chevy motor how could chevy have a 50th anniversary (in 03,04,05 or whatever year it was) if the LS1 isnt a chevy motor ? how you gonna explain that? math dont lie.[/QUOTE]

Rabon answered that one......

did he ? i must have missed that post

Might as well start shopping for that Chevy....12's are a bit on the optimistic side (but possible) the way your setup sits now. BTW, if you want 8.5-9.1 or so, you are probably pretty close with the 6xs on the 428. A .030" mill would get you close enough You will be well over 10:1 with the 16's........

Unless you just want it to appear like a numbers matching 428 (nothing wrong with that, btw

), you are trying to get what you want backwards..... Why put high compression heads on the engine and then put dished pistons to get the CR back where you already are with the 6xs? The 16's (stock) won't flow appreciably better in your app than the 6Xs (stock), and the 6xs can certainly be ported to run with the best of them.

the 16's have been worked over. i would have spent the same amount on the 6x4's as i would have had the #16's so if i turn this into a track car in the future then i still have the #16's.i thought id use it for racing and no street use. but nothing happens according to plan. besides id like to have piece of mind in knowing what rods/pistons are in there and what i can do in the future with them. it would need to be done anyway.

You should just put a SBC in there and be done with it![/QUOTE]

im not in the market for a new GTO.

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**370** 05-20-2005, 07:30 PM

you never did say how your project is comming along ?

Tripower455 · #**371** 05-20-2005, 09:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
you never did say how your project is comming along ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I ought to be driving it in a few weeks...... It's almost too nice to drive though!

Jeff R · #**372** 05-21-2005, 12:50 AM

What was the topic of this thread again? Oh, I remember now.

Hey, Bob Lutz! I think the new GTO is a fantastic modern muscle/performance car. Love the power, torque, fit & finish and especially the seats and the SEG. Thanks for bringing this car to us from down under.

pont3 · #**373** 05-21-2005, 07:55 AM

I was thinking, after all the various discussions and opinions, and facts and myths, the only thing I could think of to tell Bob Lutz is "thanks" and keep going forward from here. The "function" is here, just work on the "form" and a winner will be born.

Tripower455 · #**374** 05-21-2005, 08:47 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the 16's have been worked over. i would have spent the same amount on the 6x4's as i would have had the #16's so if i turn this into a track car in the future then i still have the #16's.i thought id use it for racing and no street use. but nothing happens according to plan. besides id like to have piece of mind in knowing what rods/pistons are in there and what i can do in the future with them. it would need to be done anyway. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, if future racing mods are a consideration, you'd be better off building a strong bottom end, with flattops, and using the 6Xs now. Then, when it's time to up the CR, you won't have to change the pistons again. You could simply swap the 6xs for the 16s and get the bump in CR. Add cam and exhaust to match......

But hey, it's your money, right?

Oh, and while you're doing math, how many Chevy models were/are available with the LS1, compared to Pontiacs?

Goat luver · #**375** 05-21-2005, 07:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jeff R.:
What was the topic of this thread again? Oh, I remember now.

Hey, Bob Lutz! I think the new GTO is a fantastic modern muscle/performance car. Love the power, torque, fit & finish and especially the seats and the SEG. Thanks for bringing this car to us from down under.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here! Here! I agree with everything Jeff R. says. Thank you Mr Lutz, your forward thinking is just amazing. Keep up the great work.

red70goat · #**376** 05-21-2005, 08:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ozzy:

Thank you Mr Lutz, your forward thinking is just amazing. Keep up the great work. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spy Photo from GM archives: Beavis and Lutzheads inspiration for putting an LS1 into a Monaro.

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**377** 05-22-2005, 12:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tripower455:

Oh, and while you're doing math, how many Chevy models were/are available with the LS1, compared to Pontiacs?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

are we including the 70's models too ? vette,slowmaro,werent the monte carlos around 95-97ish avaliable with that option too ?

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**378** 05-22-2005, 12:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tripower455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
you never did say how your project is comming along ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I ought to be driving it in a few weeks...... It's almost too nice to drive though! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you got any pics of it ?

Tripower455 · #**379** 05-22-2005, 06:47 AM

Here's a few........

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**380** 05-22-2005, 11:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tripower455:
Here's a few........ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

looks really nice. i noticed youre running the 6x's too (they 4's or 8's ?) with them on my car now i am verry dissapointed with them. thats why i went the #16 route. i figured thats what came on the 428 so that should be better then the 6x4's. how much do you plan on driving your car ?