[Billz428]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...&id=1415474368


8 tanks of gas got me this on a Fresh Shortblock .

May explain why my Combo was Never what it shoulda BeeN !!!!

[ponyakr]

Never seen one that loose. Looks like it is the wrong length chain.

I've seen 100,000 mile chains that weren't quite that loose.

I would think that a chain that loose would probably "jump time", sorta like the Pontiac chains did back in the old days when the teeth would wear off on those nylon teeth timing gears. That was fun.

[NeighborsComplaint]

That's what the timing chain on the motor that came with my car looked like. The prior owner had built the motor and installed a double roller timing set of some kind. The build was a couple years old, not many miles and was loose like yours. I installed a new one (Summit Branded) and it was so tight I thought at first it was too short.

Your cam timing was seriously retarded with that loose a chain. You probably lost a lot of low end to low-mid power potential.

[Cliff R]

What is it, my eyes aren't focusing all that well this morning?.....

[steve25]

The only time I have ever seen one so loose was on a Mopar 318 I had when it failed and jumped, time and fortunately did so on a restart and did not bend any valves!

Did you soak that chain in a bowl of oil overnight before you installed it ?

It looks dry in there to me!

Are you sure the timing chain / fuel pump eccentric hole is feeding oil the way it should?

How does the eccentric and the fuel pump arm look?

I would crank the motor over with the plugs out for some good rpm while that chain is still on the gears and confirm good oil flow to that Cam plate oil hole.

From test I have done after a new chain was installed on a motor who’s chain was not even that bad I can say that your motor was performing like you had the timing 6 to 8 degrees retareded!

Your motors performance must have sucked to put it mildly!

[firechicken]

Had the same thing happen with a high dollar roll master billet set. Guitar string tight when installed and looked like yours after 300 miles of use.

I was probably just unlucky but went to a Milodon gear drive and never looked back.

[steve25]

If the OP has the time it would be really interesting to know what part of that chain is showing the greatest level of ware?
Sadly there’s likely a lot of grit inside that motor chewing up the cylinder walls , piston skirts and rings!

I would pull atleast one Head to look at the cylinder walls if I could not get my hands on a bore camera.

[Billz428]

NEW SHORT BLOCK....dirty in Pictures cause of my Buddy, Assembly was Clean ,

Had it line honed for the install of Billet center caps.......A STANDARD SIZE SET WAS INSTALLED BY MACHINE SHOP.

[Gary H]

What brand was it?

[455Grandville]

I’d be looking at where that chain was manufactured.
The hot Rod aftermarket is unfortunately filled with poorly made Chinese junk.

[78w72]

so what are the "good" pontiac timing chains to use these days?

[Cliff R]

In will ONLY use the type shown in the pics in my own engines.

LOTS of opinions on timing sets, OEM are strong, constant tooth contact and will last the life of the engine. As a disclaimer that statement may not apply to some of the newer offerings. The ones I use have heat treated sprockets and the chains do NOT stretch out after your first or second tank of gas. I buy them off Ebay for about $20-40 when I see one come up for sale. I woln't touch anything newer than the mid-1980's, so pickins is slim at times.

One has to realize that with many of these parts we do NOT get reliable feedback on their quality and durability in long term service. This simply happens because the largest percent of the customer base is lucky to put 1000 miles a year on one of these vehicle. Since that's the norm you could put a $20 Zoom double roller on it and be fine for another 25 years or so!......FWIW......Cliff

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

In will ONLY use the type shown in the pics in my own engines.

LOTS of opinions on timing sets, OEM are strong, constant tooth contact and will last the life of the engine. As a disclaimer that statement may not apply to some of the newer offerings. The ones I use have heat treated sprockets and the chains do NOT stretch out after your first or second tank of gas. I buy them off Ebay for about $20-40 when I see one come up for sale. I woln't touch anything newer than the mid-1980's, so pickins is slim at times.

One has to realize that with many of these parts we do NOT get reliable feedback on their quality and durability in long term service. This simply happens because the largest percent of the customer base is lucky to put 1000 miles a year on one of these vehicle. Since that's the norm you could put a $20 Zoom double roller on it and be fine for another 25 years or so!......FWIW......Cliff

what brand & part# is the one shown? or is that a GM one?

ive use comp double rollers on my 500+ stroker & on a mild 400 & 455, no signs of timing issues & when i pulled the one from the 455 after almost 10 years & easily 75k+ miles of daily driving & street abuse it was still tight.

[Ram Air IV Jack]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

In will ONLY use the type shown in the pics in my own engines.

LOTS of opinions on timing sets, OEM are strong, constant tooth contact and will last the life of the engine. As a disclaimer that statement may not apply to some of the newer offerings. The ones I use have heat treated sprockets and the chains do NOT stretch out after your first or second tank of gas. I buy them off Ebay for about $20-40 when I see one come up for sale. I woln't touch anything newer than the mid-1980's, so pickins is slim at times.

One has to realize that with many of these parts we do NOT get reliable feedback on their quality and durability in long term service. This simply happens because the largest percent of the customer base is lucky to put 1000 miles a year on one of these vehicle. Since that's the norm you could put a $20 Zoom double roller on it and be fine for another 25 years or so!......FWIW......Cliff

I replaced my chain and both cam and crank sprockets with NOS parts years ago. I agree, the OEM are strong and will last the life of the motor but what is sold today doesn't seem to last that long. Chinese parts generally don't last long and I think this is part of the issues we see people talk about here..

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by 78w72

so what are the "good" pontiac timing chains to use these days?

spottsperformance.com

[Gary H]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

spottsperformance.com

Does Spotts actually make a timing chain set? My experience with timing chain sets from RollMaster has been poor. In some cases incorrect sized sprockets that are too small to fit on the cam, or crank. Also, timing chains that stretch and look like the one in the original poster's picture. Nothing but Cloyes used by me over the last few years.

[mgarblik]

If the OP wants to PM me I have -.005 and -.010 Cloyes billet timing sets with the Highest quality German or Japanese IWIS chains. They do not stretch in a 3500 HP blown nitro application with 28 lbs of boost pulling the hell out of the crankshaft nose. If I had a spec. for how much was cut when it was line honed, I could better choose the length for him. Typically, a Pontiac can be line honed 2-3 times before a short chain is needed. But if the shop went nuts and cut .010" off the caps first time through, it may need a -.005 chain now. As mentioned, proper lubrication of the timing set is critical.

[Cliff R]

Just a quick story and not trying to steer anyone reading this in any particular direction.

WAY back when I first got into this hobby I used to hang out at a small shop. The owner was a very successful racer, had a 67 or 68 Camaro and he juggled between running a 396 or 454 in it depending on which Class he was running in. He ran well under the index at that time, and raced the car all over the place and did a good bit of bracket racing as well as running in sanctioned events. He taught me many things about these engines back then. I still remember the very first time he pulled the 396 from the car and was installing the 454. He pulled the timing cover off and low and behold he was running an OEM style wide link belt Morse timing set with a plastic tooth top sprocket. I couldn't believe it as EVERYONE back then bought double roller chain sets for their rebuilds. He also ran a factory cam in the engine, an older solid lifter design (it may have been the 396/375hp grind) but I don't know for sure. He did mention that he had tried a truckload of cams and nothing would outrun it. He also ran a stock pressure/volume oil pump.

He told me the factory timing sets are excellent and make more power than double roller varieties due to constant tooth contact (smooth) and absorbing some of the harmonics so the timing is steady thru the RPM range. He laughed when I mentioned high volume/high pressure oil pumps responding that they just rob power and the stock pump puts out at least two and half times the oil the engine would ever need. From that day forward I've outfitted my own engines with factory wide link belt timing sets. ONE time I deviated from that deal and installed a Rollmaster. It did fine for a while but I lost the chain after about 4 years of hard use. It did pretty good overall as it logged many thousands of street miles and at that time I was racing the car a couple of times a week.

My new engine has a Morse set on it, can't remember if it's a Cloye's, Melling or Dyna Gear but it is an older version with heat treated steel sprockets and the good chain.. Recently the engine developed a coolant leak and I had to remove the timing cover to replace the gasket. The timing set was in perfect shape, only some witness-marks on the teeth and chain was still tight. The engine has been in service since 2009.....FWIW.......Cliff

[track73]

I heard the Pontiac Tempest 4 cylinder timing chain used to be the best one for performance use. Are there any left?

[mgarblik]

The engine shop I worked out of here in Dayton, Ohio also had a number of stock and SS drivers who liked and used the QUALITY OE plastic coated cam gear and the Morse flat link chains. The feeling was reduced harmonics from the set through the valvetrain with the very long duration but stock lift cams that were required by the rules in those days. The cam lobes looked like little rectangles. They had very good luck with them. Finding NOS OE timing sets like that is still a good alternative IF you can find them. Typical flat link timing sets from China that you buy at a chain parts store will last about as long as every other Chinese auto part, 6-9 months. Then you can pull the chain off without removing the cam gear. Same deal with no-name Chinese roller sets. Most of them are not even real roller chains. The axle is a stationary pin and does not spin. They stretch and wear out very quickly. Cloyes is a reliable, USA brand that has been around for nearly 100 years. They are also an OE supplier. Their IWIS chains are the best roller chains period, even better and more accurate than the old French Renold chains they used to use 20 years ago. It's the only roller set I would use in a performance application. Had a student just last week bring in a Comp Double roller set for a 351 Cleveland engine. We had to work on it in the mill to ream the dowel pin hole slightly to even go on the cam nose. When we degreed it, the set was off 9 degrees. This is typical of the crap parts out there on a daily basis. No idea who makes their junk for them.