#241  
Old 10-06-2021, 11:34 PM
73 TRANSAM 73 TRANSAM is offline
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Default lock washer

This is what I use on my header bolts and just removed them last week and it never came loose at all. Good luck.
https://www.nord-lock.com/en-us/shop...yAAEgIuiPD_BwE

  #242  
Old 10-07-2021, 10:41 AM
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ErikW ErikW is offline
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Originally Posted by wreckmastr View Post
Depends on what the initial timing is and what fuel he's running also. IMO
18deg total timing at 18psi of boost on E85. I know it's a low number but I'd rather lose a little power for the sake of longevity. We didn't get a chance to add any more before the lifter broke. So there is more to come. Combo is new and new to us so again, baby steps. Initial timing is irrelevant really.

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1964 GTO
501, Edelbrock Heads NA, 3460 lbs.
9.76 @ 137mph
1971 Trans Am Lucy Blue, 11.56 @ 115
1966 LeMans. 462, SD prepped Kaufman D ports. 11.90 @ 112
1976 Trans Am twin turbo 462, SD Edelbrock heads 8.50@159
2009 G8 GT
  #243  
Old 10-07-2021, 10:44 AM
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Thanks AIR RAM and 73 TA for the recommendations. Both good options. Just nothing we could have installed on the car, but now that the motor is back apart we will use one of those solutions.

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1964 GTO
501, Edelbrock Heads NA, 3460 lbs.
9.76 @ 137mph
1971 Trans Am Lucy Blue, 11.56 @ 115
1966 LeMans. 462, SD prepped Kaufman D ports. 11.90 @ 112
1976 Trans Am twin turbo 462, SD Edelbrock heads 8.50@159
2009 G8 GT
  #244  
Old 10-07-2021, 06:51 PM
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firechicken firechicken is offline
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I have 1 manifold bolt that keeps coming loose as well. Picked up this bolt set recently but haven't installed yet. Looks like a simple solution and could be safety wired if the springy things don't work.
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  #245  
Old 10-08-2021, 09:03 AM
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I like it. Keep them coming. It will probably be a couple months before I get everything back together. Might try to participate in Tom Bailey's "Sick Week" drag and drive event in February down in Florida.

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1964 GTO
501, Edelbrock Heads NA, 3460 lbs.
9.76 @ 137mph
1971 Trans Am Lucy Blue, 11.56 @ 115
1966 LeMans. 462, SD prepped Kaufman D ports. 11.90 @ 112
1976 Trans Am twin turbo 462, SD Edelbrock heads 8.50@159
2009 G8 GT
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  #246  
Old 10-08-2021, 05:13 PM
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Tom Vaught Tom Vaught is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikW View Post
18deg total timing at 18psi of boost on E85. I know it's a low number but I'd rather lose a little power for the sake of longevity. We didn't get a chance to add any more before the lifter broke. So there is more to come. Combo is new and new to us so again, baby steps. Initial timing is irrelevant really.
Explain please why 18 degrees of timing at 18 psi of boost is a "Low Number".
I know of several engines with E-85 fuel and twice the boost that makes excellent power at 18 degrees of total timing at that much higher boost.

Aggressive timing at full boost will always cost you a lot of money and engine parts over time.

Tom V.

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  #247  
Old 10-08-2021, 07:55 PM
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Not sure where you're headed with this Tom. 18deg at 18 lbs is low according to your own post where "guys" are running 18deg at double the boost. So 18 at 18 is low. I would be around 9deg at twice the boost. Not sure what you mean. No disrespect.

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1964 GTO
501, Edelbrock Heads NA, 3460 lbs.
9.76 @ 137mph
1971 Trans Am Lucy Blue, 11.56 @ 115
1966 LeMans. 462, SD prepped Kaufman D ports. 11.90 @ 112
1976 Trans Am twin turbo 462, SD Edelbrock heads 8.50@159
2009 G8 GT
  #248  
Old 10-08-2021, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
Explain please why 18 degrees of timing at 18 psi of boost is a "Low Number".
I know of several engines with E-85 fuel and twice the boost that makes excellent power at 18 degrees of total timing at that much higher boost.

Aggressive timing at full boost will always cost you a lot of money and engine parts over time.

Tom V.
If you start with 36-38 degrees of initial timing and your down to 18 degrees at 18lbs of boost IMO that is a "Low" to pull 18 to 20 degrees for that low of boost. Which is why I asked what the initial timing was even though the OP feels its irrelevant.

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ET/mph talks, bullchit walks.
6.98 @ 199mph
4.53 @ 164mph
  #249  
Old 10-09-2021, 04:23 PM
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Personally I would never start with 36-38 degrees on a Boosted engine in the first place.
36-38 is for F.E. I have recommended no more than 27 total NA on a boosted engine with any real boost.
You might get away with that on a full electronic timing grid set-up but why??

JME

Tom V.

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  #250  
Old 10-10-2021, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
Personally I would never start with 36-38 degrees on a Boosted engine in the first place.
36-38 is for F.E. I have recommended no more than 27 total NA on a boosted engine with any real boost.
You might get away with that on a full electronic timing grid set-up but why??

JME

Tom V.
You wouldn't but we do. We've been running at 36 degrees with 42 to 49lbs of boost now for 7+ year's and have NEVER burnt up a thing in it.
As for why we run this much ....... Because that's where this motor is happy.
Every motor is different so to try and make it sound like I don't have a clue maybe a tick unfair. I asked the OP a simple question as to what the initial timing was and jumped on from him and you. It was a simple question that does have relevance to the conversation (IMO). I comment very little on the board now I remember why. But hey what do we know , You fast guys carry on then

Here is a pic of our timing map just for reference.

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Originally Posted by PontiacMatt72 View Post
ET/mph talks, bullchit walks.
6.98 @ 199mph
4.53 @ 164mph
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  #251  
Old 10-11-2021, 10:20 PM
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Please show me where I jumped on you. Also, are you using a stock block? I can't run that kind of power through my stock block in good conscience it would be insane. I am just being very conservative as I can't afford to grenade this thing on a whim. My initial timing is 25 degrees if that helps. Please don't turn my informational post into a pissing match. I'm just trying to share my journey into turbos and fuel injection.

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1964 GTO
501, Edelbrock Heads NA, 3460 lbs.
9.76 @ 137mph
1971 Trans Am Lucy Blue, 11.56 @ 115
1966 LeMans. 462, SD prepped Kaufman D ports. 11.90 @ 112
1976 Trans Am twin turbo 462, SD Edelbrock heads 8.50@159
2009 G8 GT
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  #252  
Old 10-14-2021, 02:24 PM
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FYI I have been stock block for years pump gas not E85. Only 10-15 lbs of boost with 8.75 to 1. timing locked at 27. Never an issue. Car is 4000 lbs been low 6's in the 1/8 on the street. Have not hurt it so far. I know there is a limit to stock block cars, that is why I am okay with low boost, for now

  #253  
Old 10-14-2021, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JSPONT View Post
FYI I have been stock block for years pump gas not E85. Only 10-15 lbs of boost with 8.75 to 1. timing locked at 27. Never an issue. Car is 4000 lbs been low 6's in the 1/8 on the street. Have not hurt it so far. I know there is a limit to stock block cars, that is why I am okay with low boost, for now
Awesome. We're going to turn it up, there's no doubt about that. I'm sure we can get the car to do low 8's maybe even dip into the 7's with the stock block. Just going about it in a methodical manner. As power increases the suspension tune changes as well as how and when the power is applied, so a little at a time.

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1964 GTO
501, Edelbrock Heads NA, 3460 lbs.
9.76 @ 137mph
1971 Trans Am Lucy Blue, 11.56 @ 115
1966 LeMans. 462, SD prepped Kaufman D ports. 11.90 @ 112
1976 Trans Am twin turbo 462, SD Edelbrock heads 8.50@159
2009 G8 GT
  #254  
Old 10-14-2021, 09:31 PM
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firechicken firechicken is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSPONT View Post
FYI I have been stock block for years pump gas not E85. Only 10-15 lbs of boost with 8.75 to 1. timing locked at 27. Never an issue. Car is 4000 lbs been low 6's in the 1/8 on the street. Have not hurt it so far. I know there is a limit to stock block cars, that is why I am okay with low boost, for now
What cylinder heads/chamber?

  #255  
Old 10-14-2021, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wreckmastr View Post
You wouldn't but we do. We've been running at 36 degrees with 42 to 49lbs of boost now for 7+ year's and have NEVER burnt up a thing in it.
As for why we run this much ....... Because that's where this motor is happy.
Every motor is different so to try and make it sound like I don't have a clue maybe a tick unfair. I asked the OP a simple question as to what the initial timing was and jumped on from him and you. It was a simple question that does have relevance to the conversation (IMO). I comment very little on the board now I remember why. But hey what do we know , You fast guys carry on then

Here is a pic of our timing map just for reference.
Your posted grid does not show that. 42 degrees of timing.

It shows 36 at low speeds before the turbo is making any real power and 27 for the majority of the grid.

Maybe you posted the wrong grid or just do not want people to see your real grid.

So I will stick by my 27 degree recommendation for when you are making any 20+ PSI of boost pressure and above 3500 rpm.

Tom V.

ps just for your information. MAP is Manifold Absolute Pressure. The Manifold is already seeing 14.7 psi with no boost at all.
so your largest number 51 on the MAP grid is actually about 36 psi of boost pressure. not 45 or 50 psi.

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Last edited by Tom Vaught; 10-14-2021 at 10:01 PM.
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  #256  
Old 10-15-2021, 07:19 AM
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Tom, Tony's car (who wreckmaster is referring to) is a Procharged setup. So boost happens right away pretty much. And it's not a street driven car like ours is so it lives primarily in the WOT and high boost area anyway.

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1964 GTO
501, Edelbrock Heads NA, 3460 lbs.
9.76 @ 137mph
1971 Trans Am Lucy Blue, 11.56 @ 115
1966 LeMans. 462, SD prepped Kaufman D ports. 11.90 @ 112
1976 Trans Am twin turbo 462, SD Edelbrock heads 8.50@159
2009 G8 GT
  #257  
Old 10-16-2021, 02:25 PM
Curtis Slowe Curtis Slowe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wreckmastr View Post
If you start with 36-38 degrees of initial timing and your down to 18 degrees at 18lbs of boost IMO that is a "Low" to pull 18 to 20 degrees for that low of boost. Which is why I asked what the initial timing was even though the OP feels its irrelevant.
That is what I thought too and why I ask. My car is a stock block also for now. I run 38° base timing and am now at 24° at 14psi. That is still low on mine and I'm on pump gas. I was conservative with mine for a long time. Turned the boost and timing up some and it was fine. Next time out at the track I'm gonna bump mine up to 27° on the 14psi. It's already in the box.
And the reason that I run 38° of timing initial is because it's a street car and runs good on 38°.
Not a pissing match. Was just curious. I kind of took the replies as being crappy too with the "moon tune" comment and the " anybody that runs more timing is a parts man's friend" stuff.

  #258  
Old 10-17-2021, 08:16 AM
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Sorry if you were offended. Wasn't my goal. Just trying to take it slow and report my progress. Already pumping over 1000hp through this thing and I want it to live for a while. Just sucks that a crappy(Crane) lifter took us out of the game for a while. Cam is off to Bullet to be repaired and I did find a small crack at the bottom of one of the cylinders on a parting line, so I'm having another block prepped.

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1964 GTO
501, Edelbrock Heads NA, 3460 lbs.
9.76 @ 137mph
1971 Trans Am Lucy Blue, 11.56 @ 115
1966 LeMans. 462, SD prepped Kaufman D ports. 11.90 @ 112
1976 Trans Am twin turbo 462, SD Edelbrock heads 8.50@159
2009 G8 GT
  #259  
Old 10-17-2021, 10:49 AM
Curtis Slowe Curtis Slowe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikW View Post
Sorry if you were offended. Wasn't my goal. Just trying to take it slow and report my progress. Already pumping over 1000hp through this thing and I want it to live for a while. Just sucks that a crappy(Crane) lifter took us out of the game for a while. Cam is off to Bullet to be repaired and I did find a small crack at the bottom of one of the cylinders on a parting line, so I'm having another block prepped.
It's cool. I understand about taking easy on it. Sucks that your having problems! Good luck with it! Love seeing turbo Pontiacs!

  #260  
Old 10-17-2021, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
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Tom, Tony's car (who wreckmaster is referring to) is a Procharged setup. So boost happens right away pretty much. And it's not a street driven car like ours is so it lives primarily in the WOT and high boost area anyway.
No Centrifugal Supercharger has boost right away.
A Centrifugal Supercharger is not a Roots supercharger.
Maybe you are confused on the two.
A Roots will have some pressure ratio change from off-idle on.

A Large Procharger will make good boost at about 1/3rd to 1/2 of its rpm capability. PM Brian H (as he ran Procharger stuff for years and he will tell you the same.)

So Boost does not happen right away (like a roots) BUT if you are leaving at 6000 rpm then the boost
will be there at that point. Deal is you have to transition from idle to that launch rpm first.

Read some web stuff about the differences between a roots and a centrifugal supercharger or a Turbo.

Tom V.

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