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  #21  
Old 10-10-2021, 11:56 AM
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This is what a classic Buick looks like. 98? You gotta be kidding me
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Old 10-10-2021, 05:30 PM
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Technically a 25 year old car is considered a classic. It is enough to get an antique plate in the state of Michigan. Buick's have been a favored brand in China since the 1930's when the ruler then, Cheng Ki Shek, had a Buick and it was looked on as a great brand. He was also a great supporter of America. The Flying Tigers were founded under his reign further endearing the Chinese people to America. The communist government does not like us but the people still do. It is funny how everyone hates on the Aztek but Honda makes an equally ugly Element and everyone thinks it is great. That is one ugly vehicle. I am also mad at GM about dropping Pontiac. I work at the GM Warren Technical Center and I still let my opinion about them dropping Pontiac. I had a 2016 Buick Regal GS with a turbo 2.0 4 cylinder and that car was fantastic. It was fairly quick, handled great and was a very nice car to drive. If I had not needed a truck to pull a travel trailer my wife bought, I still would have the Regal. I drive a 2018 Colorado Z71 and my wife has a 2013 Camaro SS,. Her car is a blast to drive. It is faster than my 1976 Firebird, until my new engine is done.

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Old 10-10-2021, 06:17 PM
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We’re waiting on a Chevy Trax from Korea. Why not just buy a Kia?��
I still ask at the GM press events in Detroit, WHERE ARE THE NEW PONTIACS AT?

  #24  
Old 10-10-2021, 07:07 PM
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Obviously the 60s-early 70's Buick GS/GSX were good cars. But, I've never known anyone who had one. The Grand National was OK for it's time but that's not saying much. Other than that, I don't know. Pontiac has made many great cars over the years. That's the brand they should have saved. But they probably say the opposite on the Buick forums.

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  #25  
Old 10-11-2021, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gator67 View Post
I’m still sour about losing Pontiac, but GM is making some terrific performance cars right now…Camaro SS ILE, ZL1, C8, 4/5 V Blackwings.
I wouldn’t buy any of that crap.

Pontiac’s problem was always CHEVY and it’s stupid protect the camaro and corvette at all. Costs attitude .

If they’d have left well enough alone and let Pontiac do what it wanted from 63 on they’d have had something special but noooo gotta protect the crap cars.

My 69 350 4 bbl 69 bird convertible gets 21 MPG and my turbo charged 455 gets 17 mpg and will click off 9s at will . The engine design with good rods is better than any Chevy POS save for the LS maybe . It was only the aftermarket that saved Chevy cause people were yanking them
Out and dropping in 389 tri powers before that. (Yes even in vettes)

Honestly I’d buy a dodge before I’d buy anything GM new . At least they are true to the American muscle car .
GM sucks these days . Make NOTHING I’d want.

I’ve had 21 69 birds have 3 right now but aside from the TA between 73 and the G8 years they also made nothing I’d be interested in buying new. Only the trans am kept me brand loyal. Through those years( I had an 87 t/a that was a nice handling fun car).

But that’s not Pontiac’s fault , that was the corporate bean counters cutting Pontiac’s nuts off and taking away its racing program first then it’s own engine program.

My daily drivers are dodge diesel pick ups and infinity SUVs But my buddies (previous GM guys) all have new high HP mopars. Hell cats etc and they are what we dreamed cars could be again in the 80s and 90s

Can you imagine if we had a trans am today with an all alluminum 400- 455 Pontiac w a turbo today? Make 1000 hp easily and get killer mileage when out of boost to lay waste to the hellcat and mustangs ???

Doesn’t matter it’ll all be electric self driving crap boxes soon following GPS or magnetic markers in the road and everything will have preset MPH

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Last edited by turbo69bird; 10-11-2021 at 01:35 AM.
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  #26  
Old 10-11-2021, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 72projectbird View Post
Pontiac wasn't exactly doing anything noteworthy when they got axed.

Granted, Buick wasn't either, but their numbers made more sense for GM to keep them around.

I think you need to check your numbers.

Pontiac sold 382,949 vehicles in the USA in 2008 down 21.2% from 2007.

Buick sold a mere 154,275, down 23.5% from 2007.

Pontiac was selling 60% more vehicles and in the midst of a recession didn't lose as much volume as Buick.

Buick's top seller was the Buick Enclave with nearly 1/3 of all Buick sales for 2008. Their actual car sales were terrible.

Pontiac had the G5, G6, G8, Grand Prix, Solstice, Torrent and Vibe. There was a G6 convertible, the Solstice 2 seater and the V8 powered G8.

Buick had an over priced Chevy Traverse as their best selling model. Nothing of value would have been lost if GM had axed Buick, but we lost a convertible model and a 2 seater as a result of the decision.

  #27  
Old 10-11-2021, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhein View Post
Obviously the 60s-early 70's Buick GS/GSX were good cars. But, I've never known anyone who had one. The Grand National was OK for it's time but that's not saying much. Other than that, I don't know. Pontiac has made many great cars over the years. That's the brand they should have saved. But they probably say the opposite on the Buick forums.
I've owned a few 86-87 Grand Nationals. They kick ass, and even by today's standards are pretty quick. Plus they're great looking!

I was pissed when GM was toying with the idea of bringing the GN nameplate back, but fortunately they haven't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Champ View Post
I think you need to check your numbers.

Pontiac sold 382,949 vehicles in the USA in 2008 down 21.2% from 2007.

Buick sold a mere 154,275, down 23.5% from 2007.

Pontiac was selling 60% more vehicles and in the midst of a recession didn't lose as much volume as Buick.

Buick's top seller was the Buick Enclave with nearly 1/3 of all Buick sales for 2008. Their actual car sales were terrible.

Pontiac had the G5, G6, G8, Grand Prix, Solstice, Torrent and Vibe. There was a G6 convertible, the Solstice 2 seater and the V8 powered G8.

Buick had an over priced Chevy Traverse as their best selling model. Nothing of value would have been lost if GM had axed Buick, but we lost a convertible model and a 2 seater as a result of the decision.
Buicks were/are a hot commodity outside the US. For as much crap we give GM, they're not stupid. To say they dropped the wrong brand because you liked one over the other is fine, but it's obvious GM picked Pontiac for a reason.

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Last edited by 72projectbird; 10-11-2021 at 10:21 AM.
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  #28  
Old 10-11-2021, 10:32 AM
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Pontiac died for me when they went to the “corporate” engine!

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  #29  
Old 10-11-2021, 12:52 PM
mgarblik mgarblik is offline
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Buicks were/are a hot commodity outside the US. For as much crap we give GM, they're not stupid. To say they dropped the wrong brand because you liked one over the other is fine, but it's obvious GM picked Pontiac for a reason.[/QUOTE]

GM was TOLD which divisions would be shut down. The fabulous Automotive Czar and his cronies, {most of who didn't drive their own cars or even own a personal car) made the decisions for them. "If you want the government handouts, this is what your going to do" end of story. When you have zero automotive interest, no understanding of GM divisions, customer loyalty, the meaning of branding, marketing and products, this is how decisions are made. Pontiac brand wasn't in a good position in world sales. That's not my argument. What really bothers me is my Tax dollars were used to save GM who had been pissing on Pontiac for 40 years because China was buying more Buicks. I will NEVER buy a new GM product and I am quite sure GM couldn't car a less.

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  #30  
Old 10-11-2021, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry455 View Post
Technically a 25 year old car is considered a classic. It is enough to get an antique plate in the state of Michigan. Buick's have been a favored brand in China since the 1930's when the ruler then, Cheng Ki Shek, had a Buick and it was looked on as a great brand. He was also a great supporter of America. The Flying Tigers were founded under his reign further endearing the Chinese people to America. The communist government does not like us but the people still do. It is funny how everyone hates on the Aztek but Honda makes an equally ugly Element and everyone thinks it is great. That is one ugly vehicle. I am also mad at GM about dropping Pontiac. I work at the GM Warren Technical Center and I still let my opinion about them dropping Pontiac. I had a 2016 Buick Regal GS with a turbo 2.0 4 cylinder and that car was fantastic. It was fairly quick, handled great and was a very nice car to drive. If I had not needed a truck to pull a travel trailer my wife bought, I still would have the Regal. I drive a 2018 Colorado Z71 and my wife has a 2013 Camaro SS,. Her car is a blast to drive. It is faster than my 1976 Firebird, until my new engine is done.
Technically a classic is not 25 years, CCCA has the list of cars.

To be illegible for AACA status ( Antique Automobile club of America) that would be 25 years old.

Any modified car negates everything said above and makes a modified car a collectible car if it's worthy.

My opinion on Pontiac is; When G.M. started putting other corporate engines in a Pontiac the game was over. I was raised to understand that the engine was the heart and soul of the Brand. After considerable reading about Pontiac's history, including all of the politicking that went on over the years I am really surprised Pontiac lasted as long as it did. Guys like Ed Cole really had it in for Pontiac and it's top managers.
When the corporate Pontiac did get the ax it was selling more cars in the states than Buick. The Chinese connection with G.M. / Buick and the big move of most of engineering to China tells me there is no more allegiance in this company called G.M. To think during WW2 a U.S. president making a G.M. president head of U.S. wartime production. Today that would be impossible and unthinkable considering the issues with what China is doing.

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  #31  
Old 10-11-2021, 01:30 PM
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I guess I never understood why they could not keep Pontiac in the US and sell Buick’s in China? It’s not as if they are selling the same car in the US and China, there are many structural, design and safety differences.

Anything Pontiac had was rebadged from somewhere. Never made sense.

I have completely moved on to Dodge/Ram with the exception of my Z71 work truck which has more reliability problems than any car I’ve ever had.

  #32  
Old 10-11-2021, 03:27 PM
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64-3Deuces 64-3Deuces is offline
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I guess I never understood why they could not keep Pontiac in the US and sell Buick’s in China? It’s not as if they are selling the same car in the US and China, there are many structural, design and safety differences.
GM didn’t give Pontiac the ax entirely on its own; the government also played a bigger role than people know. See post #29. Pontiac had been in decline for some time, due to mismanagement both at the Pontiac and corporate levels and corporate in-fighting primarily from Chevy.

The you-tube link below gives a pretty accurate view of the History of Pontiac. At the 1:12:30 mark Bob Lutz answered a question about the elimination of Pontiac. For those afraid to open the link the take-aways are; No bail out loans-too many brands cutting into the bottom line. Something has to go and initially they only wanted to keep Chevy and Cadillac; Two, so yes the Chinese Buick market was a factor; Three, Government-how much money did Pontiac make in the last 10 years? GM answer-NONE….Government-PONTIAC IS GONE….

Per Mr. Lutz—when someone is going to give you a check for 53 billion dollars, the choice is pretty easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odb0eFs_3xU

  #33  
Old 10-11-2021, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Sirrotica View Post
Never buy another new GM car, ever.

I even made and sold T shirts to commemorate the terrible event/decision of GM dropping Pontiac.
:
You skipped the Solstice on your list. Was that an error or do you not consider it a Pontiac?
Also missing is the G8 but that is a re-badged Holden.

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  #34  
Old 10-11-2021, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by 64-3Deuces View Post
GM didn’t give Pontiac the ax entirely on its own; the government also played a bigger role than people know. See post #29. Pontiac had been in decline for some time, due to mismanagement both at the Pontiac and corporate levels and corporate in-fighting primarily from Chevy.

The you-tube link below gives a pretty accurate view of the History of Pontiac. At the 1:12:30 mark Bob Lutz answered a question about the elimination of Pontiac. For those afraid to open the link the take-aways are; No bail out loans-too many brands cutting into the bottom line. Something has to go and initially they only wanted to keep Chevy and Cadillac; Two, so yes the Chinese Buick market was a factor; Three, Government-how much money did Pontiac make in the last 10 years? GM answer-NONE….Government-PONTIAC IS GONE….

Per Mr. Lutz—when someone is going to give you a check for 53 billion dollars, the choice is pretty easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odb0eFs_3xU
That youtube is full of holes.

  #35  
Old 10-11-2021, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by 67drake View Post
The disturbing part is he thinks a ‘98 LeSabre is a classic car.
I agree. Not sure how someone can get excited about a 90's plastic bumper car. Different strokes for different folks. Wonder how old the guy is??

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  #36  
Old 10-11-2021, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by 72projectbird View Post
Pontiac wasn't exactly doing anything noteworthy when they got axed.

Granted, Buick wasn't either, but their numbers made more sense for GM to keep them around.
Not true! The Kappa cars were doing well, and very unique. Lots of profit, and made in the USA.
Buick only kept for 5 reasons.. Short name and.. 4 plants in China.

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Old 10-11-2021, 06:14 PM
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I think it is funny how people always point to the Goverment handout and that is the reason they will never drive a GM product again. Yet Dodge did the same thing and people do not seem to mind driving Mopars. Dont even get me started on people who drive import cars and wonder why Ford and Chevy are/had to cut passenger car production now and in the past

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Old 10-11-2021, 06:21 PM
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Maybe if they canned Buick and slated a 2010 Trans Am in the Pontiac line maybe that would have revived the brand a bit. That would have been easy like the old days.

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  #39  
Old 10-11-2021, 07:20 PM
jerry455 jerry455 is offline
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Rebadged Holden or not, a G8 was a great car. The last SS was the next generation of the Holden and that was even better. We never even got the supercharged Holden's here. The Solstice was a fun driving car. I worked on the first driving prototype and the V-8 powered version that was called the Hot Rod car. We built it with an LS7 and that car was awesome. I like the Pontiac V-8 as much as anyone but I like the other powertrains also. Pontiac always had a feel about them. That is why I like them. I loved the 3 Fiero's that we had. One of my wifes favorite cars was our 1986 6000 STE. My son loves the 4th gen Firebirds, particularly the Trans Am.

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Old 10-11-2021, 07:49 PM
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"Maybe if they canned Buick " - too many Chinese like Buicks.

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