[Old Goat 67]

Good for you!

I know how you feel!

Charles

[GtoSS]

Yes it is a wonderful feeling. Actually have a 1966 4spd tripower car that is nearing completion of resto, yet have to assemble interior and put engine/trans in it. I am going to pull the pump now while it is on engine stand and check divider for clearance before I am chasing another HOT situation!

[66 LeMans]

Wow...
this is a long post, but GREAT INFO!!

I have recently fired up my 1966 389 for the first time, cleared some issues after that.
But, when I took it out for a drive of approximately 4-5 miles. It overheated.
yes, temp went up like a rocket!
I had to drive in reverse into the garage, couldn't look at the temp gage, and after driving it backwards for about 30-40 feet engine was huffin and puffin!! (as was I IN the car..darn it gets hot in there).
After turning the engine off, POOF!! overheated! coolant was boiling
Coolant all over the floor... well, it was a drama. Hated myself for NOT keeping an eye on the temp gage, but that was quite hard when driving backwards looking over your shoulder.
Anyway, I am definitely going to check this clearance!
I didn't know that listens so crucial.
I have a bit of hope that I can actually DRIVE my LeMans soon.
I just hope nothing got broken internally after overheating, the gage was not readable anymore because it got hotter than what the gage could display over 250F).
Can't wait to take the pump off and start banging on the divider plate (no, I will be gentle..lol)
I will definitely post if it worked! and yes,if it works you will receive a dollar George

[aronhk_md]

Just to make you aware...the divider plate clearance will NOT fix a car overheating as yours did. Something else is wrong. For example a thermostat stuck, radiator clogged, clogged passage in the block, stamped type impeller rotted away, etc.

With those temperatures there is a serious chance damage was done...but you wont know until you try firing it up again....which you can safely do for a couple of minutes once it cools again. I'd check your compression and oil immediately....and continue checking your oil for signs of water.

As for the divider plate itself......as mentioned toward the end of this thread there is a better way than hammering on the divider plate. It will be very difficult that way to get an evenly clearanced space. Instead, if the gap is too large you'll need an arbor press....if you dont have one any shop should. You are going to place the water pump snout down under the arbor press....but suspend it by 2 pieces of plate steel UNDER the impeller. Then slowly press down on the shaft, pushing it down into the impeller (essentially causing the impeller to be pushed further from the water pump itself). Keep checking with your divider plate as you progress until the impeller just touches the divider plate........so when you add the gasket you'll only have the space of the gasket as clearance.

Any shop with a press can do this for you, and I'd be surprised if they charged you more than $15-$20, as it can be done in 5 minutes.

Good luck!

[GT182]

Originally Posted by 66 LeMans

After turning the engine off, POOF!! overheated! coolant was boiling
Coolant all over the floor... well, it was a drama.

I look at it this way... it's marking it's spot. So son't feel bad, many of us have had it happen too.

After a time with a repop header panel dented and messed up ten returned, and the new ones that came in being not up to snuff, I'm getting a new Flowcooler pump with the plate on the impeller. If the divider plate clearance is not an issue with my original, that will be put back in too. Plus a flushing of the radiator and block again. Hopefully this new pump will make an improvement.

[66 LeMans]

Originally Posted by aronhk_md

Just to make you aware...the divider plate clearance will NOT fix a car overheating as yours did. Something else is wrong. For example a thermostat stuck, radiator clogged, clogged passage in the block, stamped type impeller rotted away, etc.


As for the divider plate itself......as mentioned toward the end of this thread there is a better way than hammering on the divider plate. It will be very difficult that way to get an evenly clearanced space. Instead, if the gap is too large you'll need an arbor press....if you dont have one any shop should. You are going to place the water pump snout down under the arbor press....but suspend it by 2 pieces of plate steel UNDER the impeller. Then slowly press down on the shaft, pushing it down into the impeller (essentially causing the impeller to be pushed further from the water pump itself). Keep checking with your divider plate as you progress until the impeller just touches the divider plate........so when you add the gasket you'll only have the space of the gasket as clearance.

Good luck!

thanks for the info, I have a friend working at one of these shops that sell arbor presses, I will ask him to help me with that.

About the clogged passage in the block, how can I determine that????
It is my very first rebuilt engine in my life and I just don't know how to determine if there is a passage blocked inside the engine. I really don't want to have to take it apart.

first thing I will check next time is the oil, for sludge and the water for sludge.
I hope everything is ok, so let's just all cross fingers for that.

Originally Posted by GT182

I look at it this way... it's marking it's spot. So don't feel bad, many of us have had it happen too.

After a time with a repop header panel dented and messed up ten returned, and the new ones that came in being not up to snuff, I'm getting a new Flowcooler pump with the plate on the impeller. If the divider plate clearance is not an issue with my original, that will be put back in too. Plus a flushing of the radiator and block again. Hopefully this new pump will make an improvement.

Which one are you getting? Is it an 8 bolt one?
I have seen the flow cooler pumps, didn't know they have the plate installed on it.
I will check on that, maybe I'll order one too.

One more question, can I trick somebody in sending me a couple of 8 bolt water pump gaskets? I don't have a spare
Sure, I'll pay for the gaskets and shipping

[aronhk_md]

If it is a rebuilt engine and the block was prepared properly I doubt you have a blocked passage, but its still a possibility. I'd check the easier things first. Start it up, watch the temp and check to see if coolant is flowing in the radiator....if the thermostat opens up, etc. Shut it down and wait to cool if it overheats. Listen to the way its running......its quite possible with overheating that badly you scored the cylinders with the rings, or warped a head. Compression check the cylinders. Watch the oil for milky looking oil.

I'm painting a worst case scenario because you need to watch for it....its possible here. Not definite.

[66 LeMans]

Originally Posted by aronhk_md

If it is a rebuilt engine and the block was prepared properly I doubt you have a blocked passage, but its still a possibility. I'd check the easier things first. Start it up, watch the temp and check to see if coolant is flowing in the radiator....if the thermostat opens up, etc. Shut it down and wait to cool if it overheats. Listen to the way its running......its quite possible with overheating that badly you scored the cylinders with the rings, or warped a head. Compression check the cylinders. Watch the oil for milky looking oil.

I'm painting a worst case scenario because you need to watch for it....its possible here. Not definite.

Let's hope not! Your worst case scenario scares the crap out of me!!
but we will see when I start it again.

I went to clean the car up today for Tuesday when the dude comes to evaluate my car, I only checked the oil and coolant level on the car. Oil was totally clean, like when I put it in. No sludge or anything. Oil was still clear.
Coolant level dropped a bit because of the overheating, but looked clean. No oil residue floating on top of it.
Didn't start it because I had no time to check on that.

Since it overheated after I shut it down, lets hope I didn't score the cylinder walls.

But, if I did, how can I tell? does it make a scraping sound once I start it up again?
This stuff is scary

[aronhk_md]

compression test...

[Stuckinda60s]

Originally Posted by george kujanski

Aonther thing: to me it looks like the idea that you have to slow the coolant flow to pick up heat from the engine and exchange it thru the radiator doesn't hold "water" (sorry for the pun). The more efficient pump will be moving a greater volume of coolant in a given time and that seems to cool better, IMO.

George

I know you made this post a long time ago, and I haven't waded through the whole thread to see if anyone addressed your statement that power consumption increases when the pump is optimized. The pump may pump more water, but it doesn't move more water. In other words, the efficiency goes up and the water previously moved from the suction to the input is now pumped through the system.

Originally Posted by george kujanski

Rudy, on that '67 diagram of the pump assy, the flat surface of the internal housing shoould be adjusted towards the surface of the pump vanes.

There certainly will be more power used by an optimized pump. However, I believe the goal here is to get the assembly back to the OEM design specs; as such there obviously is a limit as to how "good" or lossy the pump will be.

I guess for race purposes, the pump clearance can be relaxed, (less power wasting) at the expense of heating. An interesting trick... Opening up the clearance doesn't decrease power requirements. To do that, you have to decrease the amount of water moved and the only way to do that is through the size of the impeller. As an example, many years ago, I took a cast 8-vane impeller and machined half of the vanes off it. While I had it apart I closed up the impeller clearance as a matter of form, I do know a little about pumps.

I had read an article where it stated that Wally Booth had picked up 25 dyno hp @ 6500 rpm on his Rambler engine when he cut his pump down in this fashion. I don't know how much power I picked up, but I do know that I used that pump on 3 different engines, one a hot street 400, one a street/strip, 12.80, 400 and one an 11.80, strip only 455. I never had any heating issues. The 455 had a 6-cylinder Ventura radiator.

One way to estimate how much power is used by the pump is to check the specs of an electric pump and get the HP figures from that. They should be fairly close. Apples and oranges. The electric pump is much tighter and efficient. It actually moves less water at higher speeds. In addition, there's the inertia issue under acceleration with the mechanical pump.

George

[Indiangoat]

Originally Posted by 66 LeMans

Let's hope not! Your worst case scenario scares the crap out of me!!
but we will see when I start it again.

I went to clean the car up today for Tuesday when the dude comes to evaluate my car, I only checked the oil and coolant level on the car. Oil was totally clean, like when I put it in. No sludge or anything. Oil was still clear.
Coolant level dropped a bit because of the overheating, but looked clean. No oil residue floating on top of it.
Didn't start it because I had no time to check on that.

Since it overheated after I shut it down, lets hope I didn't score the cylinder walls.

But, if I did, how can I tell? does it make a scraping sound once I start it up again?
This stuff is scary

If your thermostat is okay you may need to check your bottom radiator hose to see if it is collapsing from pump suction. Sometimes the spiral wire support within the hose can rust away.

I hope your ole 389 is okay. At least you weren't applying a heavy load to the internal components after you noticed it was overheating.

[Groucho]

This is a great thread, and I can't wait to check the next impeller to diverter plate clearance. I have NOT read all pages, but wonder if the 60 Pontiac is covered. I have one now with a 7 blade fan and shroud that runs a bit hot for the conditions. Not bad, but room for improvement. A few years ago, I had another 60 with a little 4 blade fan and no shroud that ran MUCH cooler on way hotter days. I was stuck in traffic on a 105 degree day for 2 hours on a normally 45 minute drive and that one never went over 180-190. The one I have now will go 190 on an 85 degree day with 7 blades/shroud/freshly rodded radiator/straight water with additive. Thanks guys

[mkeafer]

Gentlemen:
I have read extensively on this forum about the water pump issues.
I just bought a new cast iron impeller water pump form Advance Auto that has six blades.
However, I see on this forum that cast iron impeller water pump is available and shown on the forum.
Does anyone know if going to the 8 blade impeller is of any advantage and if so where I can get one?
I have searched a lot to no avail.
And I apologize in advance if this has been covered and I have just overlooked it.
Thanks ahead of time for the good information.
Mike.

[63gpman]

Originally Posted by 66 LeMans

Let's hope not! Your worst case scenario scares the crap out of me!!
but we will see when I start it again.

Since it overheated after I shut it down, lets hope I didn't score the cylinder walls.

But, if I did, how can I tell? does it make a scraping sound once I start it up again?
This stuff is scary

Compression test will tell you if there is major damage to the walls/rings. The other option is to use a fiber optic scope to look inside through the spark plug hole. They are not as expensive as one would think. This one is just over 200 from northern tool, but there are a lot of them out there for less. I have this one and use it for many applications. I once used it to look down a vent in my home to find an earring my wife lost. A nice tool to have around.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...0983_200400983

[Old Goat 67]

Well George, you have been bypassed for your retirement fund!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdyAo5546JQ

[george kujanski]

Thanx for the link! The concept certainly is explained nicely in a video. They should also do an 8 bolt to show the differences.

Nice that he gave credit to the "Pontiac guys".

george

[am.mscl]

I have a March Serp Kit on my 69 Firebird with the 400. The kit includes a reverse rotation Edelbrock waterpump. I called Edelbrock after finding out about this trick and they told me the veins are designed to prevent this from happening. The tech person I talked to even said they do not recommend doing this with their waterpumps.
Does anyone run a Edelbrock high flow waterpump and if so did you attempt this trick on it?
Thanks
Ray

[george kujanski]

Can't figure how the vane design would prevent circulation around the pump due to a large clearance at the inlet hole.....especially since the pressure at the vane tips should be higher, the water would seek the low pressure area at the inlet hole.......

Imagine increasing the clearance to say, several inches...what would happen? Why bother making a chamber for the vanes to run in at all?

Maybe their tech person knows the new physics...I'l stick with the old physics.

George

[aronhk_md]

Ray,

I have the same exact March serpentine setup in a box waiting to go on this winter. Bought it from a guy who put 200 miles on it and got sponsored by Billet Specialties for their serpentine setup. I was going to wait to check out the pump until the winter when I install, but maybe I'll pull it out and take a look. Either way I still believe the right way to do this is to move the impeller on the shaft, not hammer the plate.

[george kujanski]

Whatever, hammering the plate took 5 minutes, didn't have a press. Not only that, the impeller needs to be pulled OUT towards the end of the shaft....how do you do that without messing with the bearings and seals?

The right time to do the above is when replacing the bearings and seals; press the impeller on to the proper dimension.

George